Israel sucks.
Posted by Ryan on July 12th, 2006
I have a history of attacking the Israeli state on this blog. It’s not that I am entirely opposed to the concept. In fact, Wade brought up some great points on another post about Israel’s significant contributions to society with which I agree. I just think that some of the practices engaged in under the cover of Zionism are so disgustingly unjust that I can’t help but raise the issue occasionally. Consider this:
My wife works with a Muslim man who recently returned from a trip to Syria with his wife. Their reasons for going to Syria were two-fold:
A. Mahkmoud’s mother is rather ill and family members each take turns caring for her one month out of the year.
B. Mahkmoud’s wife has a Ph.D. in communications and her latest project is documenting the condition of Palestinian refugee camps in Syria.
History Lesson: These refugee camps were first established to house the refugees of The 1948 Arab-Israeli War when Israel won a decisive victory over Arabs living in Palestine. The Palestinians were driven from much of the region in order to facilitate the Zionist “Return of the Jews†to the homeland. The Palestinian refugee camps are ironically similar to the Jewish ghettos established by Nazi Germany. The conditions are deplorable, with very, very little resources available and with an over-arching feeling of gloom. The type that slowly smothers the human spirit.
There are obviously scores of stories to be told about what many of these refugees have endured. Mahkmoud brought back one particular story:
His wife interviewed a man in one of the camps, he related that he had owned a farm and was quite unfamiliar with any of the theo-politics of the region. One day he was arrested, without cause and his farm razed by Israeli bulldozers to make space for Israeli settlements.
He should not have been available for this interview to tell his story.
The Israeli soldiers gathered together a group of 18 other farmers like himself. They were then shot and killed. All of them except for this one man. He was shot but not fatally. The bodies of the men were piled up and thrown into a shallow mass grave. He lay near the bottom of the crushing weight of this pile of carcasses for nearly two days before he was discovered.
Luckily he survived and can now look forward to spending the rest of his life in a cheerless, rotting refugee camp, malnourished and impoverished. A place where visitors are not greeted with “Welcome†but with “Have you any medicine?â€
This is Zionism, the gathering of God’s elect? This is love thy neighbor? This is blessed are the meek? This is charity, the pure love of Christ?
Ye Elders of Israel indeed.
Ryan:
It is quite disconcerting and disheartening that you would take such an approach to this issue Ryan. Sure, this arab man you speak of may have legitimate complaints about the way he has been treated by Israelis. But you’re approach to the Arab-Israeli conflict is missing the mark. I have much to say in regard to your post, but I’ll start off by pointing out the irony in your rhetoric.
You make mention of “refugee camps” and you use the analogy of Jewish ghettos in Nazi Germany as if it is the intention of the Israeli state to exterminate the Palestinians. You said: The Palestinian refugee camps are ironically similar to the Jewish ghettos established by Nazi Germany.
The irony here is quite thick: all objective observers understand that Israel has made several attempts at peace with the Palestinians. However, the Palestinians refuse to live in peace; it is their objective to exterminate the Jews (Palestinians use the exact propaganda used by Hitler’s Regime!).
To illustrate, and to provide a more balanced approach to this discussion, I highly recommend readers of Ryan’s post to visit this site.
I will be adding a few more sites and my perspective on this issue in subsequent comments (or I may be forced to come to Israel’s defense in my own separate post). For now, I suggest looking at the situation more holistically.
Comment # 1 left by Wade on July 12th, 2006
I think there are many prevalent zionistic attitudes (lifestyles, actions, thought patterns, laws) in Israel, but also in many other socities. Keep in mind that Israel has been brought up to believe that they are God’s chosen people.
This holds true in our church as well. Having been adopted into Israel, we gain a certain level of prestige and prominence in God’s kindgom. In humility, we don’t rub this notion in other people’s faces, yet instead try to invite them into the fold as well, so that they can be partakers in current and future related blessings.
However, without true and proper spiritual guidance, those who harbor zionistic feelings towards other cultures and peoples will, more often that not, act inappropriately.
Whether that end in murder, or simply outcasting somebody from your “circle of trust”, depends largely upon the person and how messed up in the head they are.
Comment # 2 left by Anonymous on July 12th, 2006
Oops, that “anonymous” is me. It changed the radio button back to anonymous after I previewed my post. Grrr.
Comment # 3 left by Connor Boyack on July 12th, 2006
as if it is the intention of the Israeli state to exterminate the Palestinians.
Actually, that wasn’t the comparison I was trying to make. I meant more that the unjust treatment of piling the Jews into ghettos (apart from the eventual genocide) is heralded as just one of the litany of inhumane treatments they endured… and yet, where did the Palestinians find themselves at the hands of the Jewish state? How quickly they forgot.
However, the Palestinians refuse to live in peace
I do not begrudge Israel the right to defend itself against aggression, nor do I begrudge pre-emptive strikes when they perceive trouble brewing, indeed, I claim the selfsame right. What I do not understand, or condone is the past agressive expansion of the Israeli state to the point of murdering innocents, mass graves, razing home and land, etc…
How is any of that action defensible?
Comment # 4 left by Ryan on July 12th, 2006
What I do not understand, or condone is the past agressive expansion of the Israeli state to the point of murdering innocents, mass graves, razing home and land, etc…
Can you provide authoritative citations supporting the allegation that there have been Israeli State sponsored murding of innocents (this does not include targeted missile strikes on known terrorist compounds), creation of mass graves, or razing of homes and land? If so, I would be interested to read up on that.
In the meantime, I would suggest reading up on the Palestinian State sponsored terrorist compaigns against Israelis. Palestinians continue to launch their homicide bombing campaigns while Israelis leave their life-long homes and property in an attempt to extend a token of peace!
Comment # 5 left by Wade on July 12th, 2006
I cited the evidence in my post. The very existence of the refugee camps is the evidence. To believe that Israel just gave a friendly nudge and strongly encouraged the Palestinians to uproot from their homeland and live in destitute conditions would be naive. “State-sponsored” is a statement created to allow for plausible deniability. As though Israel sent in their troops with the command to “Be nice to the arabs”
Again, I do not suggest that the Palestinian response to the situation is acceptable. I know that their methods for fighting are depraved and disgusting. That still doesn’t make Israel right.
Comment # 6 left by Ryan on July 12th, 2006
So, considering the history, what would you suggest the Israelis do? Would you have advised the Israelis to leave? Where should they have gone in the 40s and from then on? The history speaks for itself. Mistakes are always made on both sides of war — war is ugly. Looking at who instigated the war and how it has and continues to escalate reveals the truth about who is more, as you say, “disgustingly unjust”.
I think you’ve chosen the “wrong” side on this issue my friend.
Do you think the “ghettos” would exist if the Palestinians could live in peace??? It is utterly ridiculous to claim that the current “ghetto” conditions are the Israelis fault. Why haven’t the Arabs created anything out of the alleged “slums” they were forced into over 50 years ago? How exactly is Israel “keeping the Palestinians down”? What prevents the Palestinians from making something out of their lives? Do you honestly think the Israeli state actively prevents Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza Strip from acheiving success? All restrictions placed upon Palestinians are due to the complete inability of the Palestinians to live in peace.
Comment # 7 left by Wade on July 12th, 2006
I think you’ve chosen the “wrong” side on this issue my friend
But that’s my point.. I haven’t chosen a side, I have yet to defend the palestinians .. I’m trying to say that Israel is claiming to be fulfilling Zionist prophecies under false pretenses..namely, denying Christ and his teachings and lusting after blood. Yeah sounds like a chosen people to me.
Comment # 8 left by Ryan on July 12th, 2006
Israel is claiming to be fulfilling Zionist prophecies under false pretenses
Really? I’m not aware of Israelis claiming to be fulfilling prophecies — I think you may be mistaking them for most born-again Christians in America?
You make a good point about not taking sides; but it’s hollow — clearly your post favors the Palestinians and couches them as innocents.
Comment # 9 left by Wade on July 12th, 2006
One should point out that these ghettos are in Lebanon (not in Israel) and they exist because the Lebanese (unlike Jordan) have refused to absorb the Palestinian refugee population. This is understandable to some extent, because Lebanon had (and perhaps still has) such a delicate political balance between Muslim, Christian and Druze populations. At the same time, keeping the Palestinians in refugee camps didn’t prevent the Palestinians from disrupting that balance anyway.
Having an “Israel Sucks” headline to your post is not exactly intelligent. There are strong historical reasons for Jewish Zionists to decide to take their future into their own hands by creating a state. After centuries of being hounded and decimated, Jewish people are justifiably desperate for a little peace and security on their own terms. Maybe creating the state of Israel has not entirely achieved that goal, and certainly the Palestinians were upset that their lands were chosen for aliyah … but that’s the way things have happened.
It’s a complicated story that deserves serious care and attention. It certainly shouldn’t be relegated to an “Israel sucks” headline.
The Palestinians are a people too and they need peace and security too. Sadly, their leadership has been sorely lacking and they (like much of the Middle East) seem to be stuck between the extreme poles of authoritarian secularism and Islamic extremism. Yes they have had legitimate democratic elections, but between these two dead leaders, Arafat and Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the Palestinians have been left destitute.
Comment # 10 left by danithew on July 13th, 2006
Oops, in talking about Lebanon’s populations I forgot to mention the Shi’a Muslims. How could I forget them, considering what Hizbullah has been up to?
Comment # 11 left by danithew on July 13th, 2006
clearly your post favors the Palestinians and couches them as innocents
I did couch this particular man as innocent.. mostly because he was. I wouldn’t be critical of Israel if this particular man had not been innocent. As I said, defending yourself is not a problem for me. Executing farmers and leaving their bodies in piles… not so excusable.
Danithew:
It’s a complicated story that deserves serious care and attention. It certainly shouldn’t be relegated to an “Israel sucks” headline.
Clearly my point has been missed by both you and Wade. Sure the story is complicated and the history is sketchy. I don’t really care. What I care about is the killing of innocents. The story I told was no benign example of collateral damage from a missile strike or some other unfortunate circumstance. It was murder. Murder sucks.
Comment # 12 left by Ryan on July 13th, 2006
Murder sucks
Then perhaps you should so title your post — and dedicate it to convincingly arguing that a murder has been committed and who committed it. I certainly wouldn’t so vote, or attribute it to state-sponsored activity based on your work.
Incidentally, you’ve been snarked.
Comment # 13 left by Mogget on July 13th, 2006
Murder sucks.
We all agree on this! As I said before, war is ugly. During war, it always the case that those fighting on the “good” side maliciously kill innocent people. It is unfortunate and sickening, but one shouldn’t categorically condemn the side fighting for peace and virtue just because a few of its soldiers are animals.
Comment # 14 left by Wade on July 13th, 2006
Ryan, yes, then title your post “Murder Sucks.”
Comment # 15 left by danithew on July 13th, 2006
Because I thought I made the implication clear that I consider Israel guilty of murder.
As I mentioned earlier, I find it hard to believe (documented or not) that Israel encouraged their soldiers to politely escort the palestinians off their homeland.
Comment # 16 left by Ryan on July 13th, 2006
the side fighting for peace and virtue
Seriously? How is illegaly stealing and settling on land a fight for peace and virtue?
(yes the settlements were illegal)
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/ba123cded3ea84a5852560e50077c2dc?OpenDocument
Comment # 17 left by Ryan on July 13th, 2006
Because I thought I made the implication clear that I consider Israel guilty of murder.
Let me follow your logic:
Because Israeli soldiers may or may not have killed a group of farmers (who of course were innocent by default right?) at one point during the ongoing skirmishes, the whole State of Israel and everything it stands for is murderous and guilty of shedding innocent blood. And because of this, “Israel Sucks”.
A logical extension of your logic must mean you think the “United States Sucks”, because our soldiers have committed (and likely continue to commit) such murderous acts during war-time.
Are you following the story about the Marines currently held at Camp Pendleton who are charged with murder and who face the death-penalty for acts they may have committed in Iraq? If you’re not, maybe after hearing this story you can publish a post about how America sucks and how American citizens are all just a bunch of blood-thirsty dogs seeking injustice for all.
By the way, I’m being so harsh because I know you can take it and because we’re such good friends — and also because you’re just dead wrong about Israel.
Comment # 18 left by Wade on July 13th, 2006
One point you missed in your logic chain. I am claiming that the farmer incident I have cited is not isolated and that the state of Israel supported these soldiers actions.
This is what makes the difference between them and the current investigation into what looks like a pretty foul situation in Iraq. I am pretty sure that the US did not formally support those actions.
Now Abu-Ghraib… that’s a different story.. there are valid questions about whether that was state-sponsored abuse. If so.. then yes, the US is trending towards sucking and needs to make some serious changes.
Comment # 19 left by Ryan on July 13th, 2006
How is illegaly stealing and settling on land a fight for peace and virtue?
I don’t know if you really want to go down this road — but since you have started down the path, I’ll join you.
First of all, whether the Israeli taking of land was “legal” or not has nothing to do with virtue or peace! There are hundreds of immoral laws in existence, the violation of which is actually virtuous (e.g. Gandhi’s legacy).
And second, you should probably know that virtually all land now owned and in the possession of every Country was obtained through theft and was “illegally” settled. For example, neither the colonists nor the English Crown owned a scrap of land in America when they first arrived and started settling — that’s right, they stole the land from the natives. Also, Brigham Young and the saints were led by God to the Salt Lake Valley where they settled. I think you know that this land they took was actually owned by Mexico — yes, they were there illegally (and just think, God directed them there). Eventually, this land was “stolen” by the Americans during the Mexican-American War.
Comment # 20 left by Wade on July 13th, 2006
as for the christian zionists vs. jewish zionists, try the wikipedia articles on zionism and settlements.
Comment # 21 left by Ryan on July 13th, 2006
I am claiming that the farmer incident I have cited is not isolated and that the state of Israel supported these soldiers actions.
Please back up these claims with evidence.
Comment # 22 left by Wade on July 13th, 2006
So it is your position that the Israeli expansion and expulsion of the Palestinians is the righteous “Return of the Jews”?
Comment # 23 left by Ryan on July 13th, 2006
I am unaware of the Jews return ever referred to as “righteous”.
But yes, I am of the opinion that the state of Israel is the beginning of the fulfillment of prophecy. I will have you note that I am in good company too.
Speaking of the Treaty at Versailles at the close of WWI (where lands were divided among the victors), President Joseph Fielding Smith said the giving of the mandate over Palestine to England was fulfillment of prophecy. Said he: “This was a very significant sign indicating that the days of the Gentiles were coming to their close. Upon the withdrawal of Great Britain the Jews in Palestine proclaimed themselves a Jewish Nation which they gave the name of Israel. This has brought on a war between Jews and Arabs who inhabit Palestine. What the immediate result may be we do not know, but we can safely predict—for the Lord has spoken it—the Jews are going to return. They are to have their own national government; their cities will be rebuilt and they will prepare themselves to fulfill the scriptures when our Lord shall come. Then will come their cleansing and they shall find favor with the Lord, and they shall once more be his people.” Joseph Fielding Smith, Church History and Modern Revelation, 4 vols. [1946-1949], 4: 94.
Elder Orson Hyde prophesied thusly: “By political power and influence they (Jewish Nation) will be gathered and built up; and further that England is destined in the wisdom and economy of heaven to stretch forth the arm of political power and advance in the front ranks of this glorious enterprise.” Millennial Star for March, 1842.
And, just over 100 years later, this prophecy of the hand of heaven being used to establish the Jews in Palestine was fulfilled when in 1948, England gave up its control over Palestine to the Jewish people who then established the State of Israel.
Also, Elder B.H. Roberts anticipated the fulfillment of the prophecy when in 1929 he said that under England’s sympathetic administration “the land of Israel is developing towards the fulfillment of God’s promises to the land and to the people.” [citation: Comprehensive History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints vol. 2 p. 63]
So, it seems I have one Prophet, one Apostle, and one member of the quorum of Seventy on my side; what authority can you find to back yourself up?
Comment # 24 left by Wade on July 13th, 2006
this conversation is vaguely familiar.. last time I cited the Book of Mormon:
2 Ne. 9: 2
2 That he has spoken unto the Jews, by the mouth of his holy prophets, even from the beginning down, from generation to generation, until the time comes that they shall be restored to the true church and fold of God; when they shall be gathered home to the lands of their inheritance, and shall be established in all their lands of promise.
Clearly they have no right to go off killing people in the name of God while they have not yet recognized the Savior and the church. They are jumping the gun and committing a mortal sin on top of it.
Comment # 25 left by Ryan on July 13th, 2006
They are jumping the gun . . . .
According to you they are jumping the gun; but I’ll stick with Joseph Fielding Smith on this one:
“They are to have their own national government; their cities will be rebuilt and they will prepare themselves to fulfill the scriptures when our Lord shall come. Then will come their cleansing and they shall find favor with the Lord, and they shall once more be his people.
It’s pretty clear to me that your missing the mark here.
Comment # 26 left by Wade on July 13th, 2006
My Costco muffin says you all are missing the point…
The real culprit here is the United Nations. They created a mess that they have refused to clean up. To try to create a Palestinian state that looks like it was drawn with a protractor and then expect two religions to coexist peacefully when they are forced to live together was either a bad idea to begin with or one not seen to completion. To judge Israel as a whole like that is hard to swallow.
I had to put this into terms I could understand. Imagine an area the size of San Diego and Orange counties and add another million or so people. Then pretend that LA, Riverside, and Imperial counties along with Mexico were archenemies with hostile attitudes, declared intentions of annihilation and a history of attacks. Mix in a population of terrorist cells that are active and in constant operation inside of your own borders. Now imagine your “friends” who have committed to stand beside you, but because of their own interests can’t overly commit to your support directly. This would be your life, were walking down to Von’s to buy more muffins or having lunch at In & Out could end as a car bomb. Where everyday you send your children to school not knowing if you’ll see them that night. Israel might have made moves to improve its defensive posture. They have negotiated and reconciled willingly time and time again. Murder is never justified, but what happened to “Innocent Until Proven Guilty”. Atrocities may have happened in the process, even those backed by a past government. They’re not Nazi Germany. Not even close.
People are people. Most just want to live their lives as simply as possible, without interference from others. That’s Israel too.
Comment # 27 left by OKIE on July 13th, 2006
Well said Okster!
Comment # 28 left by Wade on July 13th, 2006
I have a hard time sympathizing with Israel, but I have to say that both sides have plenty of blame to go around.
Truthfully we are all to blame (those countries that supported the original creation of Israel) but I understand the reasons. We had to find the Jews a homeland after the horrors of WWII. Israel wasn’t a perfect solution, but there weren’t many other options.
The Palestinians were the second victims (after the Jews) as they were forced from their homes into deplorable positions.
The sad thing is we are stuck with this now. Israel is not going anywhere, and the Jews living there cannot be expected to pack up and leave. Now is the time for a little realism, and peace making.
The closest this ever came was in the late 90’s, with Arafat, Shiron and Clinton. They had the peace treaty fully agreed upon. Everyone was happy. Except for one thing, Arafat insisted on the right of return for Palestinians.
Shiron could not agree to that, and for good reason. If every Palestinian returned to Israel, they would outnumber the Israelis, and would simply vote the state of Israel out of existance. Obviously Israel can’t agree to something that would lead to their annialation.
So personally I blame Arafat. He had to know that Shiron couldn’t possibly accept that, and he decided to push for it anyway.
I guess this is all fortold anyway, had to happen for Armageddon or whatever, but it is still one of history’s greatest tragedies and greatest shames. Now we are on the brink of war again today between Lebanon and Israel. It will only stop with the return of our Savior.
Comment # 29 left by Anonymous on July 13th, 2006
History Lesson: These refugee camps were first established to house the refugees of The 1948 Arab-Israeli War when Israel won a decisive victory over Arabs living in Palestine. The Palestinians were driven from much of the region in order to facilitate the Zionist “Return of the Jews†to the homeland.
It appears that you’re the one who needs a history lesson, or at least a lesson in how to evaluate evidence critically rather than simply accepting one side’s view in a conflict. The causes of the Palestinian exodus are nowhere near as clear-cut as you make them out to be. Many Palestinians were expelled, but many others voluntarily fled the fighting and lawlessness that prevailed in 1947-48. The extent to which expulsion and voluntary flight contributed to the exodus is debatable. The issues and facts are more complex and nuanced than “Israel sucks.”
The Palestinian refugee camps are ironically similar to the Jewish ghettos established by Nazi Germany. The conditions are deplorable, with very, very little resources available and with an over-arching feeling of gloom. The type that slowly smothers the human spirit.
You conveniently leave out the fact that all Palestinian refugee camps are located in Arab countries, not in Israel. While Israel is at least partially responsible for the Palestinian exodus, which countries have restricted the refugees to their camps? Which countries have failed to allocate resources to them? Which countries have maintained the status quo of deplorable conditions? And, BTW, what happened in one country (Lebanon) that didn’t keep “their” refugees in camps but let them participate in national politics?
Comment # 30 left by Anonymous on July 14th, 2006
I am no fan of Israel but in this instance they had no other choice but to defend their people and their land. You may not hate the Jews but the fact is most LDS members despise the Jews with a purple passion. I know they all would deny it but we all know better dont we.
Comment # 31 left by Anonymous on July 19th, 2006
Last Anonymous:
Wow, I’m not so sure your statement about general LDS hatred of Jews is accurate! If it is so wide-spread, can you give any examples of instances in which the authorities or general populations of LDS people have expressed such hatred?
Comment # 32 left by Wade on July 19th, 2006
The LDS religion has a long storied history based on secrecy. The LDS teaches that “all” religions other than Mormon will be null and void in Mormon heaven. Using that definition the logical thinking is that Mormons despise all other people of another faith. I didnt say Mormon hate people of other faiths but certainly Mormons do despise all who are not Mormon. These are just the sorry “facts of life.” Its as clear as the nose on your face.
Comment # 33 left by Anonymous on July 19th, 2006