Polygamy: A Special Report
Posted by Ryan on March 20th, 2006As noted in the introductory Post to the “Special Report” series, Mary (name changed) of the Centennial Park Congregation has agreed to answer some questions, first from me and then from the ‘nacle in general. We welcome your questions although cannot guarantee that all will be answered in a timely manner (if at all). As with most other blogs, inflammatory comments will be deleted immediately.
I originally planned to edit down some of the questions and answers but in response to (understandable) frustrations regarding media bias in editing, I have chosen to include the entire text of Mary’s response (Thank you Lord, for inspiring men to invent the copy and paste option) …
Q. For clarification I only know of your sect as the Centennial Park Congregation. Is there a formal name we should use or am I mistaking your group for another?
A. Centennial Park Congregation works for us. That is the most recognized name for our group. We are also called the Centennial Park Group. We are not “the second ward” or affiliated with the FLDS at all. We never have been members of the FLDS church. It was founded in 1990 by the Jeffs to help lay claim to the UEP Trust.
Q. Polygamous groups have been getting much attention in the press lately (largely due to the actions of the FLDS church and Warren Jeffs and HBO’s “Big Love”) How has this affected your community?
A. We are usually affected by the negative press and over the last 3-4 years there has been a concerted effort to “diversify” the cities of Hildale, UT and Colorado City, AZ and by association, Centennial Park. Centennial Park is located a couple of miles south of Colorado City. Our Fire, EMT, School and wastewater facilities are directly supplied by Colorado City. Most of the other services (post office, stores etc.), come from Colorado City. As a result of the onslaught of investigators and media to the area, the population has become more reclusive and economically the area is being squeezed out of existence. When the State of Utah took over the UEP trust, which has more people than FLDS members living on the land, has only made it more difficult to feel secure in our area.
Q. What are the most prominent misconceptions perpetrated by the mainstream press that we should be aware of?
A. The media stereotypes are an area that we have found very frustrating. We have done hours of interviews only to have it end up not aired or only aired in between former members (usually who have been gone from various groups for decades) tell one outlandish thing after another.
Here are some facts: Abuse happens in every segment of society. We have found, after working with state agencies, that we actually have less abuse and domestic violence than the average community that is not religiously based. Welfare fraud: According to Utah and Arizona there is high usage of food stamps and medical. Cash assistance is practically non existent in this whole area. There are pockets of high food stamp usage and Medicaid in pockets throughout Utah and Arizona. Both states told me they had no current fraud cases, but would investigate and prosecute if there were. The fact that a tax paying citizen uses government services according to the states definitions does not constitute fraud. Education: In just this area, which only has a small fraction of the polygamous population, there is a K-12 public school; K-9 Charter School and a private high school. There is also a community college in Colorado City that offers Bachelors degrees with Universities through the internet & distance learning. We also have two 4 year Universities / Colleges within an hour drive. Underage marriage: today in our congregation young people are advised to wait on marriage until after high school and be at least age 18. In decades past (a generation ago or more) this area was more agricultural and as in rural farm areas had less educational possibilities and spent their time in farming duties-at that time people married younger, today they don’t.
Q. What are some of the biggest challenges you face as a result of your faith?
A. The biggest challenge is to keep my mind on why I am here on earth and not let “the battle” of being able to live my religion consume the time I need to spend on becoming like our Father in Heaven. Secondly, there are few people that understand the commitment we have to our beliefs and why we believe the way we do. We believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ as it was restored through Joseph Smith. Third, we have difficulty doing business and keeping our businesses going because when people find out they are working with polygamists it is difficult to keep some of those business relationships.
Q. In your opinion, what are some of the greatest benefits of living in a polygamous relationship? A. The greatest benefits come from living Plural Marriage. It is a way of learning to live for the good of the whole and not just for me and mine. It teaches you how to become selfless and have charity to those around you. Your Sister Wives are your best friends and are truly sisters with you. It comes from the working to perfect ourselves and work towards becoming like Christ which in turn makes us more like our Father in Heaven. When a family works as a unit and lives together the joy is great. It takes dedication, love and the commitment to family and faith. It is hard to explain the joy unless you experience it for yourself. You have the opportunity to be with a man that you know is committed to the same principles you are, and is committed for eternity to all his family. Our lives are all about the family unit.
Q. Is there any other basic information I should know for the purposes of writing the introductory post?
As far as basic information, I think I have gone on enough. It needs to be said again that our community is a unit and there are many different polygamist groups out there. When they talk in numbers of 30-50K people they are speaking of the Mormon Polygamists groups. There are also Muslims and Christian polygamists also. I have heard that there are more Christian polygamists east of the Mississippi than all of the Mormon Polygamists. When we talk about our religion we usually refer to it as The Work, because to us this is the work, to bring to pass the immortality, glory and eternal life of our Fathers children.
Mary:
First off, thank you for your willingness to engage in this question and answer forum.
One of my first questions has to do with the reasoning of your beliefs. In your answer to the “biggest challenges” you face, you said very few people “understand the commitment [you] have to [your] beliefs and why [you] believe the way [you] do.” Furthermore, you said that you “believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ as it was restored through Joseph Smith.”
I agree with you. I believe most people (myself included) probably don’t understand the reasons for why you believe what you believe.
To be more specific, can you talk a little bit about your view of the Priesthood? Even more pointed, what is your understanding of the Keys of the Priesthood? Is there such thing as keys in the sense that only one prophet (in Joseph’s day it was him) holds all keys at one time? Does your group believe the keys were lost? Is there a leader, i.e. a “prophet” in your group? Do you recognize Gordon B. Hinckley as an authority figure?
Okay, I think that’s more than enough to ask at this point.
Comment # 1 left by Wade on March 20th, 2006
Mary:
It is my understnading that polygamous relationships are illegal. Correct me if I am wrong. Does your group experience frequent legal battles or does law enforcement pretty much leave you alone?
Comment # 2 left by Eric on March 20th, 2006
That being said about the legality of Polygamy does your group believe that the nessasity of living that life style out weighs the laws of man?
Comment # 3 left by My Dominion on March 20th, 2006
Wade,
First, you must understand that I can only answer for myself. Not all polygamists. It is like you answering for everyone in your ward.
So, In short, Priesthood is the authority to act for God. A deacon has the authority to act for God in the ofice of a Deacon and an Apostle has the authority to act for God in the office of an Apostle. Joseph Smith holds the keys to this dispensation. He ordained or gave authority to those to act in offices of Priesthood. After the School of the Prophets in Kirkland and shortly before his death, he was speaking to the forty four men- he took off his cloak and shook it and said that they had all that he had- to carry on. The Priesthood from the time Joseph first received it, he enlarged himself by calling others, as Jesus did. Then when it was time, he organized the Church in New York. He organized a church in Ohio, Far West etc. and in more recent times Brigham Young organized the church in Utah in 1852. This was all done by the men from that forty four. Jospeh Smith was an Apostle of Jesus Christ first.
The keys…you will probably get as many answers as there are people reading this. My understanding is that the authority is still on the Earth, but that Joseph holds the keys to this dispensation. So, no, they are not lost.
I believe a Prophet is anyone who knows & propheses Jesus Christ. No we do not have a Prophet as you see President Hickley or Warren Jeffs people see him. We do not believe in one man because that one man becomes God to people and they forget who they are really trying to become like-Jesus in the likeness of our Father in Heaven.
I recognize Gordon B Hinkley as a good man that has authority over the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, as headquartered in SLC. I recongnize him as THEIR Prophet.
Comment # 4 left by Mary on March 20th, 2006
eric,
There is a huge misunderstanding between Bigamy and Polygamy. Bigamy is a crime of fraud. It is when a person who is legally married, legally marries another without the knowledge of the first.
Polygamy, as the term is usually used, has to do with possibly having one legal marriage and having “spiritual” sealings that the State of Utah and Arizona like to call marriages. We look at them as religious ordinances. The State of Utah looks at them as marriages for prosecution sake.
Yes, It is a hassle. They tell us that they will not prosecute , but because they have worded the bigamy law to include plural cohabitation, they always go back to “it is against the law”.
Actually, in the Utah and Arizona State Constitutions it says that everyone will not be molested because of their belief and practise of religion, except polygamous or plural marriages are forever prohibited.
No, we are not left alone. There are many ways to get at people without actually being charged with bigamy. We are intimidated a lot, especially right now, because we are so physically close to Colorado City and anything seems to be OK to do there. Some days it feels like the Utah territory must have felt like with the Federal appointees watching over everything.
Comment # 5 left by Mary on March 20th, 2006
My Dominion,
It is not just a lifestyle for us. Nor is it our whole religion.
We look at it as a commandment from God. To live the way he does, to become like him. We are talking eternity here. Our time in this Mortal exhistance is a small portion of that. We believe in obeying all just laws of the land. Being kept from believing and practicing our religion is not a just law. When people ask me if it would not just be easier to give it up than put up with the hassles, I think, how grateful I am that Jesus di not think that way.
Comment # 6 left by Mary on March 20th, 2006
Perhaps this is too sensitive a question, but I know it’s what many people think about when polygamy is discussed.
For me, the hardest part of plural marriage would be the loss of the one-on-one marriage relationship. I would have trouble feeling special if I knew that my husband shared the same relationship and intimacy with others. I think I could learn to make friends with sister-wives and I know that I would appreciate help with children and domestic tasks, but the thing I like best about romantic relationships is the time alone together, with things shared with each other that are special and different than those shared with anyone else. (To clarify, I’m not talking about physical intimacy as much as I’m talking about emotional intimacy.) Is this as difficult a trial as it looks to outsiders? Is it as heartbreaking as it is described by former plural wives? I’m sure you live with it happily, but was it hard at first?
Comment # 7 left by Ariel on March 20th, 2006
We had a debate a while ago about this very topic. No one involved in the discussion specifically denied the eternal nature of the plural marriage principle. It was argued, however, that as to being a requirement for entrance to the highest degree of celestial glory, evidence was sorely lacking.
What doctrine is preached in your group regarding plural marriage as a requirement for the highest degree of glory and what is the source material for the claim?
Comment # 8 left by Ryan on March 20th, 2006
Ariel,
That is a good question. Each wife has that special alone time and special relationship with her Husband. When I first came into my family, I was the third wife. My Husband told me that if I wished for my sister wives what I wished for myself I would understand.He was right. I had to work with it, the same way we work on ourselves to cultivate the attributes and characteristics of our Father in Heaven.(The love they neighbor thing!) We respect that relationship between each wife and our husband. We do not interfere with that. I do not think of the time when they are together, I am busy with other things. Sex is sacred and to be respected. That relationship was a gift from God to help bring forth His children.
Remember that the Husband is committed to all those relationships, so they all have a special place and are all different.
You have to engaged in the Faith, be working with the family unit. It is about personal growth. Sometimes there are men and women that can not be independant or treat the others is the family unfairly. That is when any relationship will go bad. Especially if people get hurt and leave and don’t try to work it out. It is no different than any relationship in that regard.
My first marriage was monogamist. It went bad, that just happens sometime. We came to this Earth for experience. Hopefully, we learn from those experiences and grow and move on.
Comment # 9 left by Mary on March 21st, 2006
Ryan,
If the highest degree of glory is to become a God. If God lives a certain way and has certain characteristics and attributes, would we not have to be and live like him?
No one ever became God by debate. It comes from becoming like God using Jesus Christ as our pattern.
(The Lectures on Faith by Joseph Smith is a good start.)
Somethings we have to pray and ponder on. My answers may be different than yours. I prayed one day and got an answer to that prayer about two weeks later. That is why I am where I am at today.
Comment # 10 left by Mary on March 21st, 2006
For those of you just visiting from Times and Seasons… Mary is still available to answer questions so please don’t hesitate to add to the discussion. Thanks for visiting!
Comment # 11 left by Ryan on March 28th, 2006
Assuming genetics works the same way in your community as in the rest of the world, the rising generation should have a roughly equal number of boys and girls. How do you plan to find multiple wives for all of the boys? What do you tell the boys who lose out because there are not enough girls to go around?
Comment # 12 left by Last Lemming on March 28th, 2006
Mary,
I read an article in the Las Vegas Review-Journal that spoke of “Lost Boys” who were young men of marrying age from polygamous families that had been kicked out of their communities in Hilldale because the had become competition for the older . Similar articles have appeared in the Deseret News and Salt Lake Tribune. I would be interested in hearing your take on this issue, knowing that the article spoke of a different congregation. Thanks.
Comment # 13 left by WaterCat on March 28th, 2006
Last Lemming,
This is always an interesting question. Although the birth rate is roughly 50/50 at birth, when you get to older ages there are not roughly 50/50. Not every 20 yrs. old girl wants to marry a 20 yrs old man. A man may have wives of very differing ages. I myself didn’t marry in Plural Marriage until I was 34. At that age in the general population there is an unequal number of single women. In the LDS church, 33% of the adults over 35 yrs. of age are single, divorced or widowed. That stat. came from the church itself. I knew many of the singles because I was a member of the single adults for 6 years after my divorce. These numbers are mostly female and very faithful. Back to the young men. Sometimes they may not be married until they are in their late twentys, sometimes women wait until 30 to marry. I have not seen any young men go without a wife if they are patient. We believe in preparing ourselves to live plural marriage, sometimes it does not happen, but you learn much in the preparation. Preparing is different than thinking you will just be able to when it happens-because you won’t be prepared.
Comment # 14 left by Mary on March 28th, 2006
Watercat,
In the Salt Lake Tribune recently they had an article on the Lost Boys. They had 750 names of boys that HAD LEFT or had been kicked out over the last ten years. That is 75 a year average. On any given night in SLC there are 700 homeless teens. Now that we have some perspective-Yes, I believe there have been kids that have been treated harshly and kicked out. Most have left because they do not want to live the lifestyles that their parents live. That is not unusual for teens. Most of these teens have marketable skills that pay well. Yes, they were taught how to work, mostly in construction trades. Before the year 2000 most went to the local public school in Colorado City. That school gives an excellent education. I have been there and seen the math and science programs they have always excelled as a school. What happened after the students were pulled out, I don’t know. I know they had 27 private schools in 2001. Also, before 2002 many new families moved from Salt Lake City and the schools they had up there were closed. I do not know about the education of the SLC students. As far as kicking boys out so there would not be any competition, is so repugnant to me. We certainly do not look at things that way. Some families may have problems, but you don’t just turn your back on someone. We believe in repentance and change. Our life here on Earth is a constant process that is constantly changing.
Comment # 15 left by Mary on March 28th, 2006
Mary, do you know how many polygamist sects there are around you? Do you know of other purported prophets?
I know very little actually about polygamists, but what I have seen validates the sad experience of the lost boys.
I do know of at least three other men who claim to be prophets, a couple live right around me. The polygamist families who live around me are routinely poor, slovenly, and undereducated. They do not dress as the people of Colorado City do.
This is not something I see on TV, this is something I’ve witnessed.
While you are happy in your chosen lifestyle, you have to agree that there are many men who are polygamists who do not care for their families in any proper way–it’s heartbreaking.
I once visited a woman who was the plural wife of a man, living in a single wide trailer with I can’t remember how many chidren, many not her own.
The visit was because her daughter had shown up on our membership lists as a member of Relief Society. We were just saying hello, we didn’t push and never went back or bothered. But those kids were living in pretty bad circumstances and they were all supposedly homeschooled.
This is just one example I’ve experienced.
I live in Enoch, just by Fifetown. You have to have had some experience with this. Can you validate or negate my impression?
Comment # 16 left by annegb on March 28th, 2006
Mary, thank you so much for your willingness to participate in this forum. I have been fascinated by the practice of polygamy, and like many Mormons, I have many ancestors who were polygamists.
I am wondering what you beleive the impact of legalization of polygamy would be, aside from making your life much easier. Do you hope or speculate that the LDS Church would reinstitute the practice?
Also, do you think that if that occurred members of your congregation would seek join LDS Church or stay separate?
Comment # 17 left by Porter on March 28th, 2006
Annegb,
There are many more “independant” polygamists than there are in organized groups. These polygamists are usually not affiliated with any organization.
About Prophets. We do not use that term, we do not believe in just one man being the “it”. We need to be careful about using that term in a negative way, afterall, I was raised in the church with “follow the Prophet” and “shun the world” both that have worked well for the LDS church.
It is sad when anyone uses command and control tactics with those that look up to them. Abuse is not isolated to one group. In my experience with social services and working in a county hospital, I saw very sad abuse and command and control used against people that could not see a way out. Abuse happens in every segment of society. It is not a product of any particular faith or even monitary wealth or lack of it. I do not know the circumstances of that family you visited, unless they asked you not to come back, maybe they need someone to reach out a hand with love and not judgement. We are all God’s children.
Comment # 18 left by Mary on March 29th, 2006
Porter,
I too have many polygamous ancestors that were early members of the LDS church.
What I would like to see is a rewording of the bigamy law so it would only be used for bigamy, a crime of fraud. Bigamy, by definition is when one person is legally married to one, goes and legally marries another without the knowledge of the first. In Utah, they added the “purport to marry” and “cohabit with another while married…”that is what they prosecute polygamists with, but only polygamists. The rewording would decriminalize the polygamy side of the bigamy law. Legalizing polygamy is a whole other thing. That would make it so polygamists could get multiple marriage licenses. That would be a major change to many laws and the way the state deals with marriages. We only want the right to our reigious ordinaces without interference from the State of Utah and their state religion of monogamy.
Where the LDS church is involved, I doubt that they would reinstate Plural Marriage. If they did, no, I do not think many that I know would then become members of the LDS church. The Gospel of Jesus Christ that was restored through Joseph Smith, Jr. is different than the modern LDS church. I think those differences would keep many from my association from joining.
Thank You for the question
Comment # 19 left by Mary on March 29th, 2006
The Gospel of Jesus Christ that was restored through Joseph Smith, Jr. is different than the modern LDS church.
What are the main differences you see?
Comment # 20 left by Wade on March 29th, 2006
Mary, that family is long gone, replaced by others. They did not want us to bother them, that is why a lot of polygamists built in Fifetown. One of the originally Fifes was a polygamist, there are LeFevres involved somewhere in there, as well, also Warrens.
Although now that our area is booming, many others are buying and building in that area from California, etc., so perhaps the polygamist families will choose to move somewhere else to get their privacy.
I am not a witness to abuse; rather, neglect, poverty, degradation, and filth.
I remember fourteen years ago helping a little seven year old boy who had been home schooled. He was in kindergarten, he could not read, lots of problems developmentally.
He told me once, “my grandpa is the prophet.” I honestly can’t remember his last name. His first name was David. He would be 21 or 22 now.
His parents took him out of school after only a few months. Very sad.
You represent a certain part of polygamist society; I’ve seen many others, and very few seem prosperous and happy. My bias is more against polygamous men, who do not seem to provide at all well for the children they father.
When I worked at Wal-Mart a few months ago, I had a few obviously polygamous women come through. I remember one woman who had two children with her, one was a little boy, I have no idea how old he was. But he had a very large birthmark covering most of his face and was obviously retarded.
I don’t suppose that means anything spiritually, but I just felt so sorry for all that she must deal with, and wondered at the future of the child.
You present a lovely picture of Christ-like living. That is your reality. There are other realities within this belief system of polygamy that are just heartbreaking. I’m assuming (correct me if I’m wrong) a greater risk of birth defects resulting from close family relations marrying.
One thing I’ve observed within those who I also assume to be fundamentalist (by their manner of dress) are unusual facial bone structures. Are you aware of this?
It’s not the plural marriage, I suppose, that causes the unhappiness. I suppose that would be the failings, I have to say, of the priesthood leader as a provider and protector of his family.
My (again with this word) assumption is that many men who are attracted to polygamy are, uh, I can’t think of a good word. Not stable, not…crap…good men.
And men in your community, they might have more stability because of the sense of community? Because I have seen some traditional polygamist families (again assuming from clothing, mostly) who seem very happy. Well fed, clean and content. They are not the majority, though.
Well, I guess it would take a billion dollar study to figure this out. But it perplexes and troubles me, what I see.
People who work in Wal-Mart in Washington (Utah) sure see a lot, I bet, though. Also Costco.
Comment # 21 left by annegb on March 29th, 2006
Wade,
Here are a few:
1)Plural Marriage
2) United Order
3) Gathering
4)Change in the Garments
5) Change in the ordinances
6) Change in Temple Ordinances
7) The Quest to be acceptable by the world at large
Thank You
Comment # 22 left by Mary on March 30th, 2006
Annegb,
Homeschooling is not only done by polygamists.
Most of Southern Utah, as well as most of the West was settled by Mormons that were polygamists. Brigham Young and John Taylor would send them out to every corner to settle areas and to keep them from arrest. I understand the arrogance of a lot of LDS members, afterall I was that way 20 years ago myself. It is easy to look at people and judge them. To say you can tell someone is a polygamist or not is stretching it a bit. Not everyone that dresses “that way” is in a Plural situation. They have a belief in Plural marriage. Only God knows what is in their hearts. Our religion is not polygamy. As a matter of fact polygamy to us is a derogatory term. Those that just believe in polygamy believe in a carnal lifestyle. Plural Marriage is the marriage system of our Father in Heaven.
Nothing I say here will change the obviously, well entrenched stereotypes that you cling to.
Your comment about the facial bone structure reminds me of the Native Americans close to where I was raised, that would check out the LDS members looking for webbed feet and a tail!
So, yes, a new study would be expensive. There have been numerous studies in the US and Canada about “polygamy” that refute the sterotypical ideas that the media seems to endlessly spew out. Because they are out there does not give creedance to the idea that the majority are unhappy, downtrodden and unclean or uneducated. It is sad to see how, in a hundred plus years that the LDS Church went from being the persecuted to the persecutors of those professing Joseph Smith. How we are so proud of our ancestors, but not of their progeny which ARE those you so readily judge.
Comment # 23 left by Mary on March 30th, 2006
You can call it judging, maybe it is. I call it seeing with my own eyes. I didn’t check for a tail, I saw a bone structure that indicated some type of retardation. You see it a lot.
The point I’m trying to make, badly, I guess, is that you paint a pretty picture and probably you are happy. Not all polygamists are and I see them and I see how they live. You’re right, it’s nothing to do with having 10 wives and 50 kids (an exaggeration), but the result is what I report.
Accurately.
Comment # 24 left by annegb on March 30th, 2006
Annegb,
Yes, I am happy. What I am trying to get you to see is that everything you put on polygamists, can be seen in every other group of humans on Earth. Believe me, monogamy is certainly no bed of roses with a divorce rate of 1 in 3.
Like I said in my last post, nothing I will ever say will change your mind because you are not open to seeing anything but bad in “polygamy”. I prefer to let people manage their owns lives while I manage mine. After all that is why we are here-to improve ourselves and get the experience we need to become like our Father in Heaven, using Jesus Christ for an example.
Comment # 25 left by Mary on March 30th, 2006
And Mary, what I’m trying to get you to admit, is that what I describe is unique to polygamous families. I’ve lived here for thirty years, I know what I’m talking about.
Sure there are low-life families out there, but the polygamous families I live around figure prominently among them.
I haven’t been to Centennial Park, but I’ve been to Colorado City, and if there was a slum, that place is one. It’s a mess, not neat little clean homes that reflect happiness and thrift, just a big mess.
Your experience is the exception, not the other way around.
Comment # 26 left by annegb on April 3rd, 2006
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