How’d we get so damn orthodox?
Posted by Ryan on March 13th, 2006
Orthodox: (adj.): adhering to what is commonly accepted.
So the Blogger of Jared has been labeled orthodox (snarker). I think this is a bit of a misnomer. Admittedly, we assumed this misnomer after it was applied so we must assume much of the blame for perpetrating the error. It is probably high time the issue was cleared up a bit. (especially considering the fact that the splash we are making in the bloggernacle is a bit like a 10 year old taking his huffy bicycle with an Ace of spades in the spokes and trying desperately to keep up with the Peloton in the Tour de France. We ain’t exactly Lance Armstrongs over here.)
As we discussed the orthodox label behind closed blog doors, we considered what exactly the implications were and whether they were good or bad. Do we really behave “more orthodox than thou� We don’t think that’s the case.
Our only true points of orthodoxy are:
1. Our insistence that to have a truly progressive debate, appeal to authorities higher than ourselves (the norm in just about every venue of professional discourse) should be observed. Of course citing authority is not a requirement to make a comment – that would be a bit overkill - just a requirement to be convincing in your assertions.
2. Our stubborn loyalty to the brethren. Now, it has been pointed out that sometimes the brethren conflict with themselves and by extension, so should our stubborn loyalty. There is much to debate in that assertion. This post would be an appropriate place to discuss it if anyone feels so inclined.
So within the confines of the LDS church we are, I suppose, orthodox but within the bloggernacle, the world, my neighborhood, the internet, etc….not so much. Besides, everyone has a bit of orthodoxy as much as they have a bit of oddity. It’s like Chris Chambers said in the movie “Stand By Me†when Gordy asked:
“Am I weird?â€
“Yeah man, you’re definitely weird.â€
“No seriously, am I weird?â€
“Yeah, but so what? Everybody’s weirdâ€
So although I am not opposed to the accusation of being orthodox because of the inherent implications in the word, I do think it may be an inaccurate label.
I happen to like the label of conservative…. I think.
One other point to clear up regarding the “Sylvester Smithernacle” (a post that was apparently poorly written), I meant it not as a criticism but as an observation. I hold Sylvester Smith in high regard despite his differences from me. Unfortunately this did not translate well in my post it seems.
Oh, come on guys, you too are so orthodox. You eat Orthodoxy-O’s for breakfast, lunch and dinner. You hug your autographed First Edition MoDoc every night before bed. You want to be best friends with Redlefs and have him join your blog. Admit it.
Comment # 1 left by SnarkerNacle on March 13th, 2006
Perhaps faithful is better than orthodox?
Comment # 2 left by Eric on March 13th, 2006
Ryan, you request all commenters to make appeals to authority in their comments. The appeal to authority is, of course, a well-known category of logical fallacy. If appeals to authority are to be the norm in your dicussions, it might be helpful to keep in mind the criteria that distinguish useful from unhelpful appeals to authority, concisely summarized on this website.
I suppose you mean the general authorities of the church in particular. If so, it’s noteworthy that some general authorities have told us not to use their judgment, beliefs, or ideas in the place of our own. No less an authoritarian than Brigham Young made this point.
Comment # 3 left by RoastedTomatoes on March 13th, 2006
it might be helpful to keep in mind the criteria that distinguish useful from unhelpful appeals to authority
I’ll leave that up to the readers. (I’m assuming of course that you are loosely asking us to recognize who qualifies as an authority when being referenced on this blog)
not to use their judgment, beliefs, or ideas in the place of our own.
agreed. Here is what I wonder about Brigham’s point (Stand back… I’m going to start the spin cycle on my quote-washing machine.): He says that we must be independent minded in order to rule as gods in the celestial kingdom. What about the idea that I, independent of anyone else, have chosen to follow whatever the brethren say. Am I not therefore independently deciding what I will do? I am humbly admitting that I do not know all things (that’s just lipservice by the way, I actually do know all things
So am I not still fulfilling the counsel by President Young and subsquently following my leaders?
Comment # 4 left by Ryan on March 13th, 2006
First of all, I eat Peanut Butter Cap’n Orthodoxy-runch for breakfast, lime green jell-o for lunch and wheat straight from the grinder for dinner.
Second, I don’t hug my MoDoc, that’s stupid. I kneel on it to say my prayers.
… who is Redlefs?
Comment # 5 left by Ryan on March 13th, 2006
Can one be considered orthodox whilst, and at the same time, quote from an R rated movie?
Comment # 6 left by Ian on March 13th, 2006
Can one be considered orthodox whilst, and at the same time, quote from an R rated movie?
I thought someone might mention that little tidbit. Actually I recorded Stand By Me on tv when I was about 15 and still have the old clunky VHS with all it’s failed attempts to cleanly pause and record during the commercials.
There was a great weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth the day I went to buy the DVD and discovered it was rated R. As yet I have not seen the original unedited version which is both a source of pride and a painful loss.
Comment # 7 left by Ryan on March 13th, 2006
Ryan, the edge of Brigham’s quote kicks in when he says that the doors of exaltation will be closed to those who say, to some church leader or other, “I believe your judgment is superior to mine, and consequently I let you judge for me.”
You say, “I, independent of anyone else, have chosen to follow whatever the brethren say.” That sounds a bit close to being a paraphrase of the quote from Brigham in the previous paragraph. It seems to me that, following Brigham’s statement, we’re required to exercise our own best judgment on each issue and each decision, using advice and counsel from leaders as a privileged but not exclusive data source. Does that seem like a reasonable idea?
Comment # 8 left by RoastedTomatoes on March 13th, 2006
well said, however…
I may be mistaken but isn’t he here discussing the idea that the saints should not look for instruction in everyday behaviors (he mentions everyday trying to do what is good and shunning what is evil)? I don’t think he was saying determine for yourself which doctrines preached are true and which are false. In other words, I’m not trying to discredit the argument that there are false doctrines preached by church leaders, I’m just questioning the applicability of this talk.
What issue do you think he was really trying to address here?
And furthermore, does it matter what he was trying to address? Can we still use his words to draw your conclusions or is that a bad way to go about deciding what we will believe? Kind of like following a fallacious tidal mathematical model (see earlier post)?
Comment # 9 left by Ryan on March 13th, 2006
It seems to me that there is a very large pool of potential authoritative texts and authors to draw from. For the most part our opinions as members of the church ought to jive with most of these sources. If not we are on a slippery slope and need to be careful. I think the danger comes when we take a few words from isolated sources (including BRM, and about anyone else) and put a strong interpretation on them and ignore other sources. In general, if you (whoever you are) have an opinion that seems foreign to me, it will carry more weight if it has some scriptural support for it.
Comment # 10 left by Eric on March 13th, 2006
I will quote what my dad told me after I blessed my son. “That was a little unorthodox.” my answer to him…”so I got my point across.” and to this day I stick to my guns. I blessed my son twice (on accident) to be intelligent. I have to say I am somewhat sorry I did. He outwits me constantly eventhough he is only 6. (don’t even go there I am not a stupid person/ Even though I opened that door)
My point is does it matter if your unorthodox or are orthodox as long as you get your point across. But to be honest sometimes the unorthodox way works better because it gets more attention. >>>damnit
Comment # 11 left by my dominion on March 13th, 2006
This post has been removed by the author.
Comment # 12 left by Jettboy on March 13th, 2006
For editing purposes:
I think if we don’t pay attention to authority than why even have authority? I guess I will have to counter by ironically saying Brigham Young was wrong in insisting that we must be independant minded. The Scriptures time and again say the very opposite. Independant minded is death, humble and teachable is life eternal. Those who go against the teachings of God’s authorities always end up damned. You live by losing yourself, not finding yourself. You do what God wants, not what you want. Of course, I could go on and on and . . .
Without authority there is anarchy, and the LDS God is a God of organization and not confusion. We either have Prophets who speak the will of God or we do not. If they speak the will of God then we better be listening, and not making excuses. If their words conflict, then we better find out how they don’t in following both.
Comment # 13 left by Jettboy on March 13th, 2006
Yep, you guys are orthodox. Not a bad thing as long as you can laugh at yourselves, which you clearly can.
BTW, anarchy isn’t typically considered (among anarchists at least) to be the absense of authority…rather the absense of political authority. Authority still matters…there’s just an emphasis on personal and social authority over governmental authority.
I think what you refer to as anarchy is more appropriately labeled chaos.
Trust me. I’m an authority on the subject.
The mormAnarchist.
PS. If you get a chance, check out the new group blog of politics and religion.
Comment # 14 left by Watt Mahoun on March 14th, 2006
Uh, your position on Sylvester Smith was perfectly clear. It could only be willfully misunderstood.
-Adam Greenwood
Comment # 15 left by Anonymous on March 19th, 2006