Good morning Bishop Goldberg
Posted by Ryan on February 8th, 2006
I recently read an article by Gary Mokotoff the man who was the initiator of a three year haggle between the Jewish genealogical community and LDS leadership regarding the offense of proxy baptism of deceased Jews (more painfully, holocaust victims/martyrs) without consent from the families or the Jewish community at large. Although the article offered a couple compelling arguments as to why the practice is considered offensive, I must admit that I am suffering from a lack of empathy (it should be noted that despite my lack of empathy, the church acquiesced and now actively discourages proxy baptisms without consent from descendants). I don’t get why anyone would care. To be honest, I can’t imagine that it would bother me if the Catholic Church, Islam, Judaism or any other religion, reputable or otherwise performed some ritual with the intention of putting me on their rolls. If I’m already dead, I don’t care and if my family cares, they need to learn to lighten up and realize that not everyone believes the same way we do.
I have a great respect for many religions (in fact, I have claimed several times that were I not Mormon, I would probably look to Judaism) this respect extends to the actions, ordinances, etc… that their beliefs call for. I feel somewhat after reading this article that my respect is not reciprocated. Or am I being insensitive to a people who have been through some rather traumatic history?
I’m with you. Why be offended by this? It should be flattering.
Comment # 1 left by Eric on February 8th, 2006
I read the whole article. It shouldn’t be hard to understand why some Jews, whether practicing or entirely secular, would be deeply offended by the LDS practice. Ponder for a moment how often you have heard the phrase “Haun’s Mill” in LDS discourse, then multiply that incident by a million.
Surprisingly, both sides of the dispute come off pretty well in the article. Those offended didn’t call for extremist responses or boycotts, they wrote letters and asked for meetings to request changes in the policy. The LDS leaders, after dithering a bit initially, moved quickly to apologize and make changes that largely resolved the problem to the satisfaction of those offended.
Comment # 2 left by Dave on February 8th, 2006
Ponder for a moment how often you have heard the phrase “Haun’s Mill” in LDS discourse
I fail to see the connection.
Because I read through the article rather quickly, did I miss somewhere the allegation that the Mormon temple work was focused on holocaust martyrs?
Surprisingly, both sides of the dispute come off pretty well in the article
I agree, I very much enjoy seeing a spirit of interfaith cooperation
That being said, I still don’t quite understand the offense that is taken.
Comment # 3 left by Ryan on February 8th, 2006
I personally don’t think that we can fully appreciate the stance that the Jews have in the situation. We just don’t have any beliefs that are equivelent to what they have.
As for Hauns mill, I don’t really see a connection either.
You suggest that perhaps if other religious groups were doing some proxy work (or the equivilent) for those at Hauns Mill, we would get upset over it. Or at least ancestors of victims would get upset.
I personally don’t see anyone getting upset over it.
Comment # 4 left by Ian on February 8th, 2006
I’m tribe of Judah. I plan on submitting names/data on as many of my Jewish ancestors as possible for temple work. I’ve had my father’s temple work done.
That said, I pretty much understand the Jewish position, and I agree with a lot of it.
You have to understand the history of persecution and forced conversions in order to comprehend the revulsion of the Jewish community on this.
You have to understand the vile anti-semitism that was still wide-spread and institutionalized as late as the 1960’s and 70’s, in the lives of people who are alive now.
And I’ve still heard vile anti-semitism, just not as wide-spread more recently. Think Jesse Jackson’s Hymie-town remark, and Michael Jackson’s remarks on “Jewies” in one of his songs. I’ve read transcripts of recent police radio logs of officers refering to someone as a “hook nosed Jewish bitch.”
When I was in grade school in the 60’s I experienced some of it firsthand. And my father’s stories about anti-semitism coming from my mother’s Presbyterian side of the family shocked me.
Proxy baptism is not forced conversion, but it is a symbol of forced conversion. It’s a slap in the face. It’s an insult. And I fully understand how Jews take it that way.
By doing proxy baptisms, and publishing the information on CD’s and now on the Internet, we’re being rather “in your face” about it.
You also have to look at it from THEIR perspective, not from ours, to understand their outrage.
To their point of view, we’re saying “Look at all the people we’ve ‘converted’ to our religion!”
To their point of view, proxy baptism is an “in your face” statement of “our religion is RIGHT, and your religion is WRONG.”
That is not an unfair assessment or rewording of our position that we have the “only true and living church on the face of the whole earth.”
You also need to remember that Jews believe that they are _a_ (not _the_) “true” religion. Jews teach that the Jews have a covenant with God through Abraham, but that does not rule out other people having other covenants. So for us to say “You need our baptism” or even just “You need _a_ baptism” is seen by them as an insult to the Abrahamic covenant. Proxy baptism is seen as a statement denying the validity or sufficiency of their Abrahamic covenant.
Baptizing dead Jews by proxy is essentially saying that being Jewish is not good enough and we have to “fix” them by “making them Christian.”
It’s saying “We couldn’t convert you in this life, so we’re going to do it symbollically by proxy. HA! We GOT ya now!”
To see it from their perspective, you have to put aside our knowledge of the Spirit World, missionaries in the Spirit World, accepting the gospel in the Spirit World, etc. And to someone who doesn’t understand all those things, proxy baptism just doesn’t make sense, and becomes subject to surface-level judgements on appearance.
Comment # 5 left by Bookslinger on February 9th, 2006
bookslinger:
My experience with anti-semitism is limited to my knowledge of the existence of it. I do not recall in my lifetime ever witnessing it and as such fully admit that I am probably unlikely to fully appreciate its destructive power in anything more than an academic sense. I also see where there is a perceived connection between proxy baptisms and anti-semitism. I feel however that this connection is a forced one.
The truth is that if the jewish community so desired, they could completely disregard the practice as a strange and incorrect belief of a church that has been controversial from its very beginning and just leave it at that. If they did, what would be the disastrous consequences? Nothing. Absolutely nothing would happen.
We would go on doing our “crazy” ordinances and they would go on living their lives.
Why is this such an unviable alternative?
Comment # 6 left by Ryan on February 9th, 2006
To see it from their perspective, you have to put aside our knowledge of the Spirit World, missionaries in the Spirit World, accepting the gospel in the Spirit World, etc.
Not so. I think the main problem here is either a serious lack of understanding on the part of Jews (due in part to those involved in the “crisis” who evidently failed to inform the jewish leaders about how every one of those baptisms is completely meaningless unless accepted by the deceased), or an underlying insecurity in their own faith which causes them to take offense.
Both my paternal and maternal family were severly persecuted for their religious beliefs (as far back as the 1600s and as recent as the late 1800s) and it wouldn’t bother me in the slightest if I discovered that they were being “initiated” into some devil worshipping sect by proxy.
Comment # 7 left by Wade on February 9th, 2006
What I was trying to say is: we don’t have to “set aside” our understanding, rather we should help others understand our perspective.
By the way, I don’t think the ruffled feathers are representative of the Jewish reaction as a whole!
Comment # 8 left by Wade on February 9th, 2006
Furthermore, I find it very very interesting that Mr. Mokotoff simply dismissed the matter when he thought it only involved a few persons: Said he, I dropped the matter at that time, concluding that it was an isolated incident.
However, Mokotoff later called it a “potential crisis” when he discovered there were numerous names in the IGI.
Why is it only disconcerting if it involves numerous individuals but okay to “drop the matter” if it is an isolated incident? If Jewish leadership is so concerned (which by the way, I don’t think orthodox rabbinical leaders ever were - the article only cites an upheaval among jewish genealogists) why did the concern only arise after discovering multiple names?
Comment # 9 left by Wade on February 9th, 2006
ryan: I also see where there is a perceived connection between proxy baptisms and anti-semitism. I feel however that this connection is a forced one.
No, it’s not forced at all. It’s quite natural. By doing proxy work, we’re saying that being Jewish “isn’t good enough to get into heaven.” Our proxy work smacks of “Jews = bad, Christians = good.”
They perceive, and quite logically so, that we’re “making people into Christians”. Because that’s what baptism does, by definition, it makes you Christian.
Granted, they perceive us as “playing make believe” by the proxy baptisms. But that’s what THEY THINK that WE THINK we’re doing, “making them Christian”.
ryan: The truth is that if the jewish community so desired, they could completely disregard the practice as a strange and incorrect belief of a church that has been controversial from its very beginning and just leave it at that. If they did, what would be the disastrous consequences?
What you’re asking of Jews today is what Jews were asked to believe in the 1930’s in Europe as Hitler was ascending in power. “Oh don’t pay any attention to that! Those are merely ‘incorrect beliefs’ held by a small minority that can’t possibly harm you in any way.”
Here’s how many Jews see any hint of anti-semitism today. Any anti-semitic bigotry must be confronted and ended. If it’s not, it grows and spreads, like what happened in Russia under the czars (for hundreds of years) and in Germany. And if it spreads and grows, it leads to the murder of Jews.
You _have_ to understand this bit of history: that the slaughter of Jews did not begin in Germany in the 20th century. The Holocaust of the 20th century was NOT an isolated incident.
You _have_ to understand this bit of history: That every time Jews “ignored” anti-semitic behavior or rhetoric as merely “incorrect beliefs” IT GOT THEM KILLED!
ryan: We would go on doing our “crazy” ordinances and they would go on living their lives.
Why is this such an unviable alternative?
Because ignoring anti-semitism and allowing it to fester and grow has ALWAYS gotten Jews killed in the past.
A core belief running through the veins of all Jews, active or inactive, practicing or cultural, post World War II, is “Never Again!”
In order to understand the offense Jews take at proxy baptisms, you _HAVE_ to understand the genesis and development of “Never Again!”
Comment # 10 left by Bookslinger on February 9th, 2006
me: To see it from their perspective, you have to put aside our knowledge of the Spirit World, missionaries in the Spirit World, accepting the gospel in the Spirit World, etc.
Wade: Not so.
I’m guessing you’re not a convert. To understand how non-members view things you have to set aside the core things we believe and put yourself in their position of not believing, and _not even having heard_ our basic beliefs.
Secondly, to understand how non-Christian non-members feel and think, you have to realize that they DON’T realize how much we distance ourselves from all other Christians. Most non-Christians don’t realize that the “problems” they have with mainstream-Christianity are often the same problems we have with mainstream-Christianity.
Most non-Christians don’t see the differences between Catholics and Protestants or between Protestant denominations. To non-Christians, Catholics, Protestants and Mormons all share the same heritage of the Crusades, the Inquisition, and the silent “good Christians” who allowed the 20th Century holocaust to happen.
Wade: I think the main problem here is either a serious lack of understanding on the part of Jews (due in part to those involved in the “crisis” who evidently failed to inform the jewish leaders about how every one of those baptisms is completely meaningless unless accepted by the deceased),
That’s irrelevant for 3 reasons: 1) they don’t believe it (proxy baptisms) can be accepted by the deceased, 2) they don’t believe God accepts it, and 3) it’s irrelevant because they don’t accept our version of the after-life Spirit World. It’s not our belief of what goes on in the after-life that offends them. It’s our actions, and our publicizing it.
wade: What I was trying to say is: we don’t have to “set aside” our understanding, rather we should help others understand our perspective.
Yes, by all means we should help others to understand our perspective. But they aren’t upset at our perspectives or beliefs, it’s what we actually say and do.
We’re saying that their covenant with God through Abraham isn’t enough for salvation. So we’re going to “pretend” to convert them via proxy baptism. As they see/hear it, we’re essentially saying Jews can’t get into heaven without a Mormon baptism. And to a non-Christian, that’s patently anti-semitic.
Other Christians may see our proxy-baptisms as insulting, but they don’t see our proxy-baptisms as being so threatening, because they see us as just another Christian denomination or just another pseudo-Christian cult. Mormons don’t have a 1700 year history of persecuting and slaughtering non-Mormons.
But as a whole, Christians do have about a 1700 year history of persecuting and slaughtering Jews. And because we claim to be “Christian”, and do baptisms, we get lumped in with _all_ those who non-Christians perceive as being Christian.
In this thread, I’m just asking you guys to try to view things through the Jewish lens which includes thousands of years of persecutions and slaughters, and for approximately 1700 of those years it was done in the name of Christianity.
Comment # 11 left by Bookslinger on February 9th, 2006
By doing proxy work, we’re saying that being Jewish “isn’t good enough to get into heaven.” Our proxy work smacks of “Jews = bad, Christians = good.”
If this argument were accurate, the logical extension would be:
By not aligning myself with Jewish tenets, I am saying that being Jewish isn’t good enough to get into heaven. My refusal to abandon anything un-jewish smacks of Jewish=Bad, Ryan=good
As a consequence of my refusal to espouse Judaism, I am anti-semitic and must be stopped before I eventually morph into a murderer of Jews.
Because ignoring anti-semitism and allowing it to fester and grow has ALWAYS gotten Jews killed in the past
This statement marginalizes anti-semitism. Comparing it to something as benign as proxy baptisms is to classify it with a work borne of love rather than words and actions deeply rooted in hatred.
I’m not saying that your argument is an inaccurate depiction of the perception of many jews re: proxy baptisms, what I am saying is that they have the wrong perception of the relationship between the ordinance and anti-semitic sentiments. My post is asking for an abandonment of this mistaken perception.
Comment # 12 left by Ryan on February 9th, 2006
Ryan: This statement marginalizes anti-semitism. Comparing it to something as benign as proxy baptisms is to classify it with a work borne of love rather than words and actions deeply rooted in hatred.
If your point is that some Jews can sometimes be overly touchy, then I agree.
But they don’t know that it’s a work borne of love. It may be that the relatively few but vocal Jewish denouncers of proxy baptisms didn’t actually investigate and discover our motives.
Persecuted minorities, whether Jewish or black or whatever, tend not to want to sit down for roundtable discussions with those who appear to hate them. And if group “B” does something similiar to what group “A” did when group “A” was persecuting and killing the minority, it’s important to realize that the minority feels little need for patience and understanding with “B”.
Ryan: I’m not saying that your argument is an inaccurate depiction of the perception of many jews re: proxy baptisms, what I am saying is that they have the wrong perception of the relationship between the ordinance and anti-semitic sentiments. My post is asking for an abandonment of this mistaken perception.
Good. Because some things in your original post pushed some hot buttons: “I must admit that I am suffering from a lack of empathy.” and “I don’t get why anyone would care.”
You asked: I feel somewhat after reading this article that my respect is not reciprocated. And that is true. Most Jews don’t realize that we are one of the few Christian sects that puts such an emphasis on the Abrahamic covenant, and views Jews, and all of Jacob’s descendants, as a chosen people.
You asked: Or am I being insensitive to a people who have been through some rather traumatic history?
Mmmm, it did come across a bit that way.
BTW, thanks for the link. I’ll give you a reciprocal link.
Comment # 13 left by Bookslinger on February 9th, 2006
But they don’t know that it’s a work borne of love. It may be that the relatively few but vocal Jewish denouncers of proxy baptisms didn’t actually investigate and discover our motives.
From the article…
“It afforded me the opportunity to discuss the matter with Elder Brough. At the meeting, he restated the Mormon position:
* The act of baptizing deceased persons was an act of love;
* Because Mormons believe these persons reside today in the spirit world, they can reject the baptism;
* Many of the baptisms were against Church policy that requires the approval of the person’s immediate family if they were born within the past 95 years.”
Comment # 14 left by Ryan on February 9th, 2006
Yes, by all means we should help others to understand our perspective. But they aren’t upset at our perspectives or beliefs, it’s what we actually say and do.
We’re saying that their covenant with God through Abraham isn’t enough for salvation. So we’re going to “pretend” to convert them via proxy baptism. As they see/hear it, we’re essentially saying Jews can’t get into heaven without a Mormon baptism. And to a non-Christian, that’s patently anti-semitic.
I have two points in response:
First, I strongly believe that the vast majority (indeed I would say virtually all) of jews couldn’t care less whether Mormons are baptizing victims of the holocaust or not. The fact is as of 2003, only 84% of Jews actively participate in synagogue, and only 48% even believe in a God.
Second, as for those who have taken offense to the Church’s IGI, they are expressing an extreme amount of irrational thought processes. To actually believe another religion’s belief that your own personal covenant with God is not sufficient for salvation is the equivalent of anti-semitism marginalizes the real anti-semitism that is currently deluging the world!
So, Bookslinger, I understand your position but I think it may be a bit hyperbolic when applied to the Church’s IGI.
Comment # 15 left by Wade on February 9th, 2006
Wade: First, I strongly believe that the vast majority (indeed I would say virtually all) of jews couldn’t care less whether Mormons are baptizing victims of the holocaust or not. The fact is as of 2003, only 84% of Jews actively participate in synagogue, and only 48% even believe in a God.
Only 50% or less of US Mormons actively participate in church, so they beat us in that respect. The figures are even lower for Mormons outside the USA.
I’m confident that most Jews are unaware of our proxy baptisms. If they were, I think most would be mildly offended, but would not protest it. I think those who would take offense would be those more in tune with history of modern anti-semitism (last 200 years), and those over age 55 who likely experienced it.
Wade: Second, as for those who have taken offense to the Church’s IGI, they are expressing an extreme amount of irrational thought processes.
I’m surprised at your lack of compassion and understanding. I’m trying to figure out whether you don’t care how Jews feel, or whether you are ignorant of the last several hundred years of history of persecution, forced conversions, and mass murder of Jews by people in the name of God and Christianity, or whether you are just one of those Mormons who is bigoted towards other religions.
One of the things that disgusted me on my mission about some Western Mormons (specifically from Utah and California) was their bigotry toward non-members, and sometimes towards converts. I saw it at all levels from missionaries up to General Authorities.
Yes, your comments do come across as just a teensy bigoted and insensitive.
Wade: To actually believe another religion’s belief that your own personal covenant with God is not sufficient for salvation is the equivalent of anti-semitism marginalizes the real anti-semitism that is currently deluging the world!
Again, you’re showing a lack of understanding of history of anti-semitism and especially how so-called “Christians” justified it.
All anti-semitism practiced by self-professed Christians started with “Jews aren’t good enough” “Jews can’t go to heaven” “Jews killed Christ” etc.
Anti-semitism is not limited to painting swastikas on synagogues. Wholesale slaughter of Jews was not limited to Hitler.
Ruined careers, beatings, driving people out of neighborhoods, keeping Jewish kids out of colleges and private high schools was widespread in the US through the 1960’s, and vestiges remained through the 70’s.
So when we Mormons say (and do in the temple) that Jews can’t go to heaven without a Mormon baptism, we’ve taken Step One that all those other self-professed “Chistians” took on their road to persecuting Jews.
Wade: So, Bookslinger, I understand your position but I think it may be a bit hyperbolic when applied to the Church’s IGI.
Sorry, but you haven’t showed understanding of the history of anti-semitism by Christians and the attitude of those Jews who choose to fight it at all levels (even at Step One) under the banner of “Never again!”
If you were denied a job, kept out of a school, or discriminated in housing because you’re a Mormon, you’d probably be among the first to protest.
Proxy baptisms don’t rise to those levels. But the perceived reasons why we do proxy baptisms are the same reasons behind those uglier forms of anti-semitism.
Were you ever teased as a kid for being Mormon? Was your father ever denied employment for being Mormon? Was your family ever the only Mormon family in a neighborhood of non-Mormon Christians and told that you were going to hell for being a Mormon?
I think Mormons who’ve suffered a bit of persecution, and who have a grasp of historical persecution of Jews, would likely feel a bit more compassion for those Jews who are concerned about proxy baptism efforts.
I think a people who’ve been persecuted and slaughtered for millenia, just for being who they are and what they believe, and who’ve been slaughtered wholesale just within the last 65 years, do have a somewhat of right to be touchy and overly sensitve to ANYTHING that smacks of the rationalizing of past persecutors.
Comment # 16 left by Bookslinger on February 9th, 2006
Bookslinger:
I actually switched the numbers for active jews in the U.S.: only 16% of Jews actively participate in synagogue and 48% believe in God. Moreover, I don’t really get what you are trying to convey in citing the problems Mormons have with inactivity - what does Mormon inactivity tell us about Jews taking offense to the IGI (which I don’t believe they have)?
As for the allegations of insensitivity, you are likely at least partly correct here. I do know it is hard to wrap one’s head around the historical persecutions you speak of! However, I am not ignorant of history. I have visited the holocaust museum in D.C.; I’ve read numerous books on the holocaust (I particularly enjoyed Man’s Search for Meaning); and I was very moved by the movie Nuremberg.
Having been exposed the realities of the level of historical persecutions, I hold to my position that I refuse to believe the majority of religious Jews have taken offense to the IGI, and that those who have are actually marginalizing the real persecutions now taking place (e.g. homicide bombers particularly in Israel).
I’m actually on the Jewish side here whether you believe it or not! See my defense of Israel here.
Comment # 17 left by Wade on February 10th, 2006
See my defense of Israel here.
Ahhh! Help, I’ve been thrown under the bus!
You know, I had forgotten about that post. That’s two anti-jewish posts in a not very long space of time. For someone who claims to be absolutley fascinated with Judaism to the point of making it my second preferred belief system behind Mormonism, I sure have been critical. On that note, Bookslinger, I concede.
Comment # 18 left by Ryan on February 10th, 2006
You know, I had forgotten about that post.
Yeah, honestly I think it’s not because you’re anti-semitic, it’s because it’s clear you were taking the unpopular side of the argument for the sake of argument. It’s clear from your comments in the thread that you back Israel and the jewish people.
Comment # 19 left by Wade on February 10th, 2006