Blogger of Jared

16 Responses to “The Classics: What think ye of Judas?”

I have two initial thoughts: one regarding free-will (yes I wish to connect that topic here too), and the other as my preliminary argument against Ryan’s hypothesis.

I will start with the latter. I think the following words of Christ strongly militate against the posited theory.

And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.

And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?

And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me.

The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. (Matthew 26:21-24 - bold mine)

Thus, there you have it, the Savior himself said it would have been better for Judas if he were never born. As a strict constructionist, I would have to say that not being born would put one on the side of the 1/3 who followed satan and never obtained bodies. Thus, to be in this category surely is not better than having eternal exaltation as you suggest!

Finally, as noted, Christ also used the word “shall” when referring to Judas’ betrayal. This to me means that Judas’ crime was categorically unavoidable. If this is true, then one has to acknowledge that he had no choice in the matter.

Interestingly enough, this little debate about free-will in relation to Judas’ betrayal has led some academics/intellectuals to reject Christianity altogether! Nice post Ryan!

Comment # 1 left by Wade on January 25th, 2006

I have given some thought on this subject over the years, I have never had the oppurtunity to discuss it. I think I lean more towards Wades opinion, and think that the question is closely related to the topic of free will. I’m pretty sure that we all have free will, and so did Judas. I beleive that God knew Judas’ heart and knew that he would betray the Lord. Judas was not compelled I don’t think.

But, was Judas accountable for his sin?

One thing that comes to mind is the account of Josephs brothers.

Genisis 50:

18 And his brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we be thy servants.

19 And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for am I in the place of God?

20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

The Case for Judas could be argued similarly. Certainly Judas “thought evil” against the Lord. Certainly the sacrifice of the Lord was part of Gods plan and “God meant it unto good.”

But were Josephs brothers completely blameless? Where they exonerated from evil doing? I guess that they are if they repent, which it appears that they did. But perhaps selling ones brother into slavery is different than betraying someone into death. Also, would betraying someone into death be handled different than betraying the Lord into death?

So, is the question wether or not Judas repented? Did Judas commit a sin that was unforgivable? Judas did not actually nail him to the cross. Did he know that they were going to kill him? My guess is yes, but I can’t be sure.

This brings me to another controversial doctrine that is probably more suitable for another thread, but in some ways it is intwined with the question of Judas. That is blood atonement. If Blood Atonement is actual (which I’m not sure is true) was Judas’ death by blood atonement? Could his own blood have been shed for his sins? And is Blood atonement sufficient enough to get one into the Celestial kingdom, or is it just enough to keep you from outer darkness?

I think that Judas could easily have repented for what he did and could be in someplace other than outer darkness. I’m not sure that he is “exalted with Christ and will return to sit in judgement with Him”

That would take some convincing.

In reality, it’s probably a bad idea to debate someones salvation. I just looked back and realized that I asked more questions than I answered…

Comment # 2 left by Ian on January 26th, 2006

One thing that comes to mind is the account of Josephs brothers. The Case for Judas could be argued similarly.

Nice comparison! It actually has been pretty widely taught that the story of Joseph and his brethren is a type or shadow of Christ and the atonement. I would say the citation from Genesis in which Joseph forgives his brethren is a pretty strong argument for Ryan’s theory.

Comment # 3 left by Wade on January 26th, 2006

Oh man, I’m so torn as to where to start here, I feel that I should respond to Wade’s (and some of Ian’s) argument before laying out my own but I fear that if I don’t get to my argument now, I never will. Well I guess I’ll just hope my points come out in the discussion…

I am suspect of the inference that the bold section of Wade’s scripture actually means the Savior referred to the 1/3. The reason being, those that translated the scriptures were likely using an idiomatic expression similar to
“You’ll wish you were never born”. This seems most likely to me since we are essentially the only consequential Biblical religion that believes in a pre-existence and as such, adding that idiom would be of no consequence to anyone but us.

As to Judas’ compulsion to betray Christ, this does not seem implied to me by the use of the word “shall”. It’s akin to me watching someone drive sixty mph towards a cliff. There comes a point when, based on the laws of physics and barring a miraculous intervention, I can say, with a surety, “that guy is going to drive off the cliff”. That doesn’t mean I forced him to do it. I just know he is going to do it before it happens.

Comment # 4 left by Ryan on January 26th, 2006

But just to get heart of your argument, perhaps you can elaborate on what exactly Judas did to deserve a punishment equal to that of the 1/3 who will never have a body and as such are in an even more deplorable state than the sons of perdition…

Judas did not actually nail him to the cross. Did he know that they were going to kill him? My guess is yes

My guess on that would actually be no. Why would Judas, who by the way had a tacit endorsement from Christ to perform the betrayal, believe that the Son of God would allow himself to be murdered by a small band of detractors. Christ had already shown the ability to drive crowds of people before him at his will and he hadn’t even had to use any supernatural powers.

Comment # 5 left by Ryan on January 26th, 2006

…those that translated the scriptures were likely using an idiomatic expression similar to
“You’ll wish you were never born”. This seems most likely to me since we are essentially the only consequential Biblical religion that believes in a pre-existence and as such, adding that idiom would be of no consequence to anyone but us.

Your logic is very suspect here! First off, you may be right in that Christ wasn’t referring to the 1/3. However, your argument in support of that isn’t very sound. The argument that the adding of idioms that only make sense in the context of Mormonism falls apart when we look at the follwoing: John 9:2 in which the Apostles ask Christ if a man was born blind because he had sinned (an obvious reference to the pre-existence); 1 Corinthians 15:29 other Churches still have to explain away baptism for the dead because it was included in the scripture; Genesis 29-30 the establishment of the house of Israel through Jacob’s four wives (polygamy only makes sense in the Mormon context); ad-nauseam.

However, I do like the analogy of the speeding car.

Comment # 6 left by Wade on January 26th, 2006

My guess on that would actually be no. Why would Judas, who by the way had a tacit endorsement from Christ to perform the betrayal, believe that the Son of God would allow himself to be murdered by a small band of detractors.

I see your point. Perhaps we are both right. Maybe Judas knew of their plans to kill the Saviour, but Judas either did not think it possible or he did not think that Jesus would allow himself to be killed. But none of the other brethren seemed to understand that Jesus was going to be killed, so why would Judas be any different.

I’m not sure that Jesus was endorsing Judas’ actions. In my minds eye I have always imagined that as Jesus spoke the words “That thou doest, do quickly.”, Judas became squeamish and spoke not a word and averted his gaze from the others. He knew that Jesus knew, but for whatever reason tried not to think about it.

That is how I imagine the picture.

Comment # 7 left by Ian on January 26th, 2006

I meant to say that Jesus was perhaps acknowledging to Judas that he knew what he had planned, but was not endorsing his actions.

Comment # 8 left by Ian on January 26th, 2006

…perhaps you can elaborate on what exactly Judas did to deserve a punishment equal to that of the 1/3 who will never have a body…

Yes, this definitely is your strongest point here. Upon reflection, I am now of the view that Judas is probably exalted with Christ.

Ian’s pointing out the type of Joseph and his brothers as a shadow of Christ’s betrayal (interestingly enough the brothers sold Joseph for the equivalent of 30 pieces of silver) really started me thinking about the issue.

Also, what more did Peter do when he denied Christ? Is there a fundamental difference between Peter and Judas? I suppose there is in that Peter’s “betrayal” of Christ was not an active one, rather it was a passive denial. Nevertheless, one could argue that Judas’ betrayal is not much further removed from Peter’s.

Comment # 9 left by Wade on January 26th, 2006

Stay tuned for some good quotes from Apostles concerning this debate (I’ve got some on both sides). I’d post them now if it weren’t already after 11 p.m.

Comment # 10 left by Wade on January 26th, 2006

Just to add a little more weight to my cause before Wade posts his quotes

D&C 29: 12
12 And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, and it hath gone forth in a firm decree, by the will of the Father, that mine aapostles, the Twelve which were with me in my ministry at Jerusalem, shall stand at my right hand at the day of my coming in a pillar of bfire•, being clothed with robes of righteousness, with crowns upon their heads, in cglory even as I am, to djudge• the whole house of Israel, even as many as have loved me and kept my commandments, and none else

Comment # 11 left by Ryan on January 27th, 2006

and then the detractors shall say, “But Matthias was with Him in His ministry”

To which I say, baloney (or even bologna) Matthias was around but he was not one of the 12 that were with him in His ministry, he became one of the twelve after the completion of Christ’s Ministry

Comment # 12 left by Ryan on January 27th, 2006

Is there a fundamental difference between Peter and Judas?

This is a very good question. One to think about.

(interestingly enough the brothers sold Joseph for the equivalent of 30 pieces of silver)

I hadn’t thought of that before. Perhaps Josephs brothers selling him into slavery was a direct type of what would happen to Christ.

Perhaps Judas is sitting with Christ?

Comment # 13 left by Ian on January 27th, 2006

Okay, I finally got around to posting these promised quotes. I think they are very interesting to say the least! I won’t comment on them for now - tell me what your take on them is?

To sin against the Holy Ghost, or to shed innocent blood, is a most dreadful crime, the worst a man can commit and one that cannot be forgiven. Judas Iscariot was guilty of this, and many other apostates have been guilty of the same crime. George Q. Cannon, Gospel Truth: Discourses and Writings of President George Q. Cannon, selected, arranged, and edited by Jerreld L. Newquist [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1987], 453.)

Judas Iscariot, one of the Twelve, sought an audience with these rulers of the Jews, and infamously offered to betray his Lord into their hands. fn Under the impulse of diabolic avarice, which, however, was probably but a secondary element in the real cause of his perfidious treachery, he bargained to sell his Master for money, and chaffered with the priestly purchasers over the price of the Savior’s blood. “What will ye give me?” he asked; “and they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver.” fn This amount, approximately seventeen dollars in our money, but of many times greater purchasing power with the Jews in that day than now with us, was the price fixed by the law as that of a slave; it was also the foreseen sum of the blood-money to be paid for the Lord’s betrayal. fn That the silver was actually paid to Judas, either at this first interview or at some later meeting between the traitor and the priests, is demonstrated by after events.

He had pledged himself to the blackest deed of treachery of which man is capable, and from that hour he sought the opportunity of superseding his infamous promise by its more villainous fulfilment. We are yet to be afflicted by other glimpses of the evil-hearted Iscariot in the course of this dread chronicle of tragedy and perdition; for the present let it be said that before Judas sold Christ to the Jews, he had sold himself to the devil; he had become Satan’s serf, and did his master’s bidding. James E. Talmage, Jesus the Christ: A Study of the Messiah and His Mission According to Holy Scriptures Both Ancient and Modern [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1983], 548.)

Speculation as to individual sons of perdition is at best unprofitable. Some have consigned Judas Iscariot to this doom, based on certain scriptural passages. (See John 12:6; 6:70; 17:12; Acts 1:20.) President Joseph F. Smith questions this interpretation:
To my mind it strongly appears that not one of the disciples possessed sufficient light, knowledge nor wisdom, at the time of the crucifixion, for either exaltation or condemnation; for it was afterward that their minds were opened to understand the scriptures, and that they were endowed with power from on high; without which they were only children in knowledge, in comparison to what they afterwards became under the influence of the Spirit. (Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1969].)

He commenced his ministry as an apostle of the Lord. He ended it a traitor. For thirty paltry pieces of silver, he sold his soul. At last, realizing the enormity of his sin, Judas, to his patrons and temptors, shrieked: “I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood.” (Matthew 27:4.) Remorse had led to despair, despair to madness, and madness to suicide. He had succeeded in betraying the Christ. He had failed to finish the apostolic ministry to which he had been divinely called. (Thomas S. Monson, Pathways to Perfection [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1973], 238.)

Comment # 14 left by Wade on January 29th, 2006

Thanks for those quotes. Very interesing and more to think about. Before reading this thread, thread, I had made up my mind that Judas was a son of perdition, but now I’m not so sure. In some ways I almost hope that he sufficiently repented.

Comment # 15 left by Ian on January 30th, 2006

Something to think about:
The Gospel accounts were written by the survivors who had an obvious bias against Judas. So I’d suggest taking their words about him with a grain of salt.

If he killed himself after Christs’ death (does anyone know if it was before or after the Resurrection? I’m guessing before,) then he probably couldn’t have written the “Gospel of Judas.”

I don’t know where he is now and as has been said, there isn’t much point in speculating. I’m a soft-touch though and I hope he was able to repent and recieve forgiveness.

Comment # 16 left by Proud Daughter of Eve on April 6th, 2006

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