The religious right
Posted by Ryan on December 27th, 2005
“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country.”
– Israeli Prime Minister (circa 1950’s) David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky’s Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan’s “Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.
Ahhh the Israeli’s and the Palestinians. Tough story. The Isareli’s want the land that they live on and much of of the land surrounding it. Meanwhile the Palestinians are being asked to pack up and move somwhere else because the Jews have decided they want the aforementioned land. In a nutshell:
Israel: God gave us this land, get out.
Palestine: We were here first, go pound sand.
I tend to side with the Palestinians in this argument. (Not their methodology of course, but with their right to live where they live, although personally I think the whole region is one big hell-hole that should never be lived in). Maybe it’s because I identify with the plight of the early saints and their expulsion from… just about everywhere. But not likely. In fact. It seems to me that I would side more with the Jews. Why? Well, we know that Joseph Smith (through Orson Hyde) was arguably the highest profile Christian Zionist around until Theodore Herzl. So why don’t I advocate the taking of all the land necessary to facilitate the return of the Jews to the land of their inheritance? Is it just my secular nature that is setting at naught the will of God in favor of my own short-term views of justice and equity. Maybe. But probably not. I have my reasons which I expect will be brought out in due time if anyone is interested in discussing the issue. So what say you, Ye Elders of Israel? Or Ye Elders Of Palestine?
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Comment # 1 left by Eric on December 28th, 2005
Orson Hyde Wrote a letter…
…. in this, if it does take place, I can see plainly the hand of Providence. The fact is, this land belongs to the Jews; and the present fermentation thereof shows me that it is fast working back into the hands of its rightful heirs. God will, in due time, drive out the Canaanites, so that no more a Canaanite shall be found in the land, or in the House of the Lord. I find that almost a universal anxiety prevails respecting the return of the Jews. The waters are troubled because the Angel has descended. My heart leaps for joy at the prospect of seeing that land, and there fulfilling my mission.
Elder of Israel Through and Through for myself. You Canaanite..
Comment # 2 left by Eric on December 28th, 2005
Great quote and an impressive bit of input on the subject albeit an opinionated letter. I don’t think, however, that it stacks up against revealed scripture:
2 Ne. 9: 2
2 That he has spoken unto the Jews, by the mouth of his holy prophets, even from the beginning down, from generation to generation, until the time comes that they shall be restored to the true church and fold of God; when they shall be gathered home to the lands of their inheritance, and shall be established in all their lands of promise. emphasis added
As far as I am aware the church has extremely limited proselyting capability in Israel and as such, the Jews show no openness to recognizing their Redeemer, or coming back to the fold of God. Why then, would I support the theft of land that they are falsely claiming was given to them by God? It’s somewhat like me insisting that God promised me I can be cleansed through taking the sacrament so I always make sure I eat a piece of bread and sip some water on my way out to the casino on Sunday. God’s covenants are not efficacious when we do not obey his commandments.
So until the Jews join the church, I give them no more slack than I would any other country who unrighteously invades another to steal away their homeland.
Comment # 3 left by Ryan on December 28th, 2005
To some extent I agree with you ryan, at least I can see where you are coming from.
While I beleive that the Jews will eventually gain control over Isreal again, I think that the Lord will give it back to them when he sees that the time is right. Clearly that time is not right yet.
I’m not sure that the Jews will need to join the church to receive the birthright though. They just need to accept Christ. I highly doubt that all of them will need to either. We already see movements like “Jew for Jesus”.
Comment # 4 left by Ian on December 28th, 2005
Here is a great webiste page that I ran across. Read it and give me your comments/apologies after you are done.
http://chass.colostate-pueblo.edu/history/seminar/hyde/hydepaper.htm
Comment # 5 left by Eric on December 29th, 2005
Alas, a subject on which I strongly disagree with Ryan. Ryan’s logic seems to be a bit flawed. His justification for siding with what I call “the culture of death”, is that the Jews haven’t yet accepted the restored gospel. This is just silly.
To illustrate, let us analogize to the “giving” of North America to the European white man who came and, in Ryan’s words, “stole” it from the natives. In fact, our progenitors did technically steal the land from those who possessed it because they slowly killed the natives off and drove them west. Yet, as we know, the scriptures (heavily noted in a few chapters in 2nd Nephi) teach us that this land was preserved and given to those seeking religious freedom; the giving of the land to these people was the precursor to the restoration - without it, the restoration could not have been accomplished (in my opinion).
So, according to Ryan’s logic, he doesn’t support the colonizers’ taking of the land from the natives because they hadn’t yet been righteous enough to have God’s blessing of the restoration. In fact, to put it into perspective, the restoration wouldn’t take place for almost exactly 200 years (Jamestown was established in the 1620’s I believe). But, this logic puts the cart before the horse - we tend take things out of historical perspective and place events into our desired timing. Thus, I think Israel’s taking/stealing of the land from the Palestinians is justified despite the faults of the Jews.
After all, the persecution of the Saints in the eastern and mid-western states was due in part to their faults - provoking their neighbors and explicitly declaring their right to have the land etc. Yet, we as members of the Church support their efforts to establish the “New Jerusalem”. Then, why not support the efforst of the Jews to establish the old Jerusalem?
Lastly, Amos chapter 9 pretty much backs up my support for Israel!
8 “Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD.
9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.
14 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.”
Thus, the fact is, God HAS given the Jews the land of Israel despite their reluctance to accept the gospel (but I would recommend to you researching how it is that the BYU center in Israel came to be - you may be surprised). We shouldn’t force our time-table on God.
Also, the mere difference in civilizations moves me to support the Jews against the Palestinians. Look at the facts: the Jews consistently make discoveries in the medical and scientific fields and support democracies - while the Palestinians do NOTHING productive; their dominant goal is to murder innocent Israelis (innocent because the vast majority of them have been born after the grant from England in 1953, and the Palestinians don’t attack political leaders).
So, come now brother, have I persuaded you to support those nasty Jews?
Comment # 6 left by Wade on December 29th, 2005
I don’t think that the Jews should necissarily seek reclaiming the land by violence. I don’t think that is the answer. I think time will tell the best course of action.
As far as I am aware, the Church does not own the temple plot in Independance Missouri either. The reorganized church still does. I doubt that anyone will support the Church in taking that land violently.
Both Palistines and Isreals hands are covered in blood. Neither are innocent. The fact remains that Isreal will receive the land of their inheritance. I wonder how the Lord will bring about this inevitable event.
Comment # 7 left by Ian on December 29th, 2005
So, come now brother, have I persuaded you to support those nasty Jews?
classic
Let me first assuage Wade’s pet peeve by responding to his claims before I push my argument further.
1. So, according to Ryan’s logic, he doesn’t support the colonizers’ taking of the land from the natives because they hadn’t yet been righteous enough to have God’s blessing of the restoration.
That extension of “my logic” would absolutely be applicable if I were speaking of general principles and not of specific particulars. That is, If I had said “Based upon the commandment not to steal, clearly the Jews are wrong” I would be falsely applying a gospel principle. What I have done instead, is suggest that the scripture I mentioned above seems, in my mind, to specifically point to the current situation and states that the prerequisite for getting back the land of their inheritance is to return to the fold. This prerequisite is made in addition to, or maybe even despite any general policy the Lord has typically followed in transferring the title to various lands. (By the way Ian, I stand most likely corrected when you pointed out that this prerequisite “return to the fold” probably does not necessitate becoming Mormon.)
2. Thus, the fact is, God HAS given the Jews the land of Israel despite their reluctance to accept the gospel
I didn’t get where you pulled out two of your statements here. First, “HAS”?? I must have missed the letter from the First Presidency that metioned this
What part of that scripture leads you to believe that the current crisis in the west bank is the actual fulfillment of this scripture? It’s a bit presumptuous considering that in the very same scripture Amos also prophesies the fulfillment of the gathering of Israel. I know of several missionaries that would be interested to hear that they are just wasting their time, “Didn’t you get the memo? Israel has all been gathered already.”
despite their reluctance to accept the gospel
I’m going to defer back to my previous scripture for that one.
“until the time comes that they shall be restored to the true church and fold of God; when they shall be gathered home to the lands of their inheritance, and shall be established in all their lands of promise.”
the Jews consistently make discoveries in the medical and scientific fields and support democracies - while the Palestinians do NOTHING productive
Agreed, the Israeli state is much more beneficial to the world than the Palestinian state. But let’s play “follow the logic” again.
Based on that claim, approximately 80% of the world’s countries should be taken over, their peoples displaced and their resources and land given to only first world countries because they are much more productive. Of course the problem is, once we do that, we’ll just have to keep picking off whatever country is at the bottom of the productivity pile. It gets a little egregious don’t you think?
Comment # 8 left by Ryan on December 29th, 2005
Reading through this discussion, I also feel that I have a certain responsibility to mention that I actually have not determined which position I formally believe. I just chose pro-palestinian because that was my initial reaction back when I first heard of the jewish settlements. It was not until I considered posting a discussion about it on the Blog that I even considered the whole conflict from a millenial perspective.
End Disclaimer
Comment # 9 left by Ryan on December 29th, 2005
Ryan said: “HAS”?? I must have missed the letter from the First Presidency that metioned this
What part of that scripture leads you to believe that the current crisis in the west bank is the actual fulfillment of this scripture? It’s a bit presumptuous considering that in the very same scripture Amos also prophesies the fulfillment of the gathering of Israel.
Well, I think maybe we aren’t as far removed in our thoughts as it may appear. I do agree that in order to fully “inherit” Palestine, the Jews will have to accept Christ and become His people. However, I also believe that the political and historical occurances are prepatory to this inheritance and thus, I support the Israelis over the Arabs in the current conflict.
As for the “First Presidency Letter”, I too am not aware of one, yet I am aware of multiple writings by prophets and authorities that back me up.
Speaking of the Treaty at Versailles at the close of WWI (where lands were divided among the victors), President Joseph Fielding Smith said that the giving of the mandate over Palestine to England was fulfillment of prophecy. Said he: “This was a very significant sign indicating that the days of the Gentiles were coming to their close. Upon the withdrawal of Great Britain the Jews in Palestine proclaimed themselves a Jewish Nation which they gave the name of Israel. This has brought on a war between Jews and Arabs who inhabit Palestine. What the immediate result may be we do not know, but we can safely predict—for the Lord has spoken it—the Jews are going to return. They are to have their own national government; their cities will be rebuilt and they will prepare themselves to fulfill the scriptures when our Lord shall come. Then will come their cleansing and they shall find favor with the Lord, and they shall once more be his people.” Joseph Fielding Smith, Church History and Modern Revelation, 4 vols. [1946-1949], 4: 94.
Elder Orson Hyde prophesied thusly: “By political power and influence they (Jewish Nation) will be gathered and built up; and further that England is destined in the wisdom and economy of heaven to stretch forth the arm of political power and advance in the front ranks of this glorious enterprise.” Millennial Star for March, 1842.
And, just over 100 years later, this prophecy of the hand of heaven being used to establish the Jews in Palestine was fulfilled when in 1948, England gave up its control over Palestine to the Jewish people who then established the State of Israel.
Also, Elder B.H. Roberts anticipated the fulfillment of the prophecy when in 1929 he said that under England’s sympathetic administration “the land of Israel is developing towards the fulfillment of God’s promises to the land and to the people.” [citation: Comprehensive History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints vol. 2 p. 63]
Thus, whether you like my analogy to the founding of America and how its founding was occurred through the taking of land from others or not, my point still stands that we shouldn’t be casting aspersions on the Israelis just because they appear to be stealing the Arabs’ land. I can cite other Church authorities who confirm my position that the historical events, and indeed one may safely assume the current political happenings, are a part of the restoration of the Jews to their land of inheritance.
As for your point about the 80% of other Countries that should be taken over because they lack goodness, I think we should leave it for another thread - it is quite a good topic. In fact, I do think they will be taken over in the long run.
Comment # 10 left by Wade on December 29th, 2005
Excellent quotes Wade. I am learning a lot. I thought Eric’s website was especially informative as well. (It’s funny how studying a current crisis can lead one to a better understanding of one of the heroes of the early church, namely Orson Hyde, what a stud.)
Back to the debate, I don’t think that I have mentioned, at any point that I think that the Jews should be removed from Israel and all the land given over to the Palestinians. In fact, as diplomacy goes, Israel has clearly shown a desire to live peacefully with the Palestinians with their recent withdrawal from the settlements.
What I object to is the further Jewish settlements that continually push the border of their state deeper into Palestinian lands.
Comment # 11 left by Ryan on December 30th, 2005
“What I object to is the further Jewish settlements that continually push the border of their state deeper into Palestinian lands.”
If you don’t support the expansion of Israeli lands/settlements, why do you accept the legitimacy of the State to begin with? Do you think Thomas Jefferson’s philosophy of western expansion which led to the Louisiana Purchase and the eventual wars with the natives and with Mexico were an evil or wrong thing?
Also, do you really believe that the Arabs will discontinue their homicidal bombings (calling them suicide bombings is somewhat disingenuous) just because the Israelis have pulled out of a few settlements? I don’t - I think it only encourages the Arabs in their tactics because they have obviously worked!
Comment # 12 left by Wade on December 30th, 2005
This may sound over the top, but in essence for you to say that you do not want the Israelites to have the land that God is calling for them to have, you are saying that you do not want Gods commandments to be fulfilled. The establishment of the “rightful” people has started. They do not have all of it (just like we do not have all of the scriptures) but I believe that just like them getting it in the first place it’s God hand that is “allowing” them to gain what has already been promised to them. If they were not to inherit the land there would be no second coming. I still think you are a Canaanite Ryan….
Comment # 13 left by Eric on December 30th, 2005
This may sound over the top, but in essence for you to say that you do not want the Israelites to have the land that God is calling for them to have, you are saying that you do not want Gods commandments to be fulfilled.
Well that’s a bit of a misrepresentation of my argument. What I was contending was that the Israeli settlements (which, make no mistake, have been obtained by violent means) are not the designs of God but the designs of men
Why do the Jews need any more land than the state that they currrently had given to them? Where is it justified that they must now start expanding further. At what point do they stop? How many freebie settlements do they get before they reach the border of the land of their inheritance?
Another interesting point that I came across in my research is that most orthodox rabbinical Jews spurn the state created by the gentiles for them. They believe that God does not need the help of the secular world to prepare the land of their inheritance.
Comment # 14 left by Ryan on December 30th, 2005