Logic and Beauty
Posted by Ryan on December 19th, 2005
The question of common sense is always “What is it good for?” - a question which would abolish the rose and be answered triumphantly by the cabbage. ~James Russell Lowell
There has been much discussion in the Bloggernacle lately of intellectualism and liberalism and whether or not it leads to a form of minor apostasy when the learned clash with the revelators. I have fondly remembered the above quote (in a butchered form) ever since I read it briefly that one time at the place with the stuff and the things. I decided this morning to look it up via the power of Google because I feel that the heart of this quote addresses, rather keenly, the foundations of Mormon intellectualism (MI). For what is MI if not (1)an effort to understand the revelations in their entirety and (2) find place for their application in our lives. In short, to “make sense of it all”
Sadly, James Russell Lowell’s words lead me to believe that perhaps the fraud of MI is that in the end, we push out the beautifully complex and incomprehensible parts of the gospel that are available, in this mortal life, only to look at. Then, while spinning in the vortex of a comprehension and application vacuum, we substitute the complex for the simple and edible cabbage.
I have an “intellectual” friend who has slowly slipped away from the church for just this very reason. There were certain aspects of the church, it’s history, it’s policies and eventually it’s doctrines that led him to label it all a sham. Why? Because it didn’t jive with “common sense” and in the end, he disregarded the rose in search of the cabbage and found that all the church had to offer him was a rotten cabbage. His is a great tragedy and ours a great paradox. How do we reconcile the divine command to treasure up knowledge and simultaneously avoid, in our quest for supposed intellectualism, trading the rose for the cabbage?
Personally I’m grateful that there is more to the eternities than I can possibly understand with my little brain and yet somewhat remorseful that my “everything must be logical” nature often precludes me from appreciating all the beauty the gospel has to offer
D&C 46: 7) But ye are commanded in all things to ask• of God, who giveth liberally; and that which the Spirit testifies unto you even so I would that ye should do in all holiness of heart, walking uprightly before me, considering the end of your salvation, doing all things with prayer and thanksgiving•, that ye may not be seduced• by evil spirits, or doctrines of devils, or the commandments• of men; for some are of men, and others of devils.
My Feeling is that sometimes people search the depths of the gospel to get there testimony, and in doing so have no roots to hold them out on the branches.
Your “friend” I can only assume who… Did not nurture his testimony (if he ever had one in the first place) and in doing so could not separate men’s actions from gospel doctrines. “The Man Vs the Mantle” idea if you will.
The Church Doctrines are infinitely deep and it’s overwhelming to think we are to learn all things. On the flip side, like the scripture says above, there are “doctrines of the devil” and in my opinion he does a good job disguising them. So if you are to be diving in the deep end of the pool I sure hope you have first learned how to swim and second remember how do to so.
This is my first post do you want me typing out the whole scripture or do you guys rather just the reference? and what the heck is BBC?
Comment # 1 left by Eric on December 20th, 2005
well, “bbc” is a national media network for Great Britain. BCC is www.bycommonconsent.com which is, along with timesandseasons.org, a pretty popular Mormon Blog)
“My Feeling is that sometimes people search the depths of the gospel to get there testimony, and in doing so have no roots to hold them out on the branches.”
I very very much agree.
Although what I was trying to point out in my post, is that sometimes we think, in our intellectualism, that we can find the “why” behind all of the doctrines. Then when the answers do not become apparent, even after much study and thought, we (meaning the bloggernacle and other psuedo intellectuals) open ourselves to the “high road to apostasy” as we decide that the law and the prophets must have been mistaken.
Case in point: The strong opinions being voiced about the priesthood ban. “It doesn’t mesh with our cultural determinations of what is fair or right. Consequently the brethren must have been racist.” At least that’s the argument I was faced with in a recent post.
Comment # 2 left by Ryan on December 20th, 2005
O that cunning plan• of the evil one! O the vainness•, and the frailties, and the foolishness• of men! When they are learned• they think they are wise•, and they hearken not unto the counsel• of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom• is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish.
This also brings to mind images of the great and spacious building which represents the pride of the world. The angel taught Nephi that these were those that fight against the 12 apostles.
Comment # 3 left by B. Cotter on December 20th, 2005
I’m formulating my thoughts still…
Comment # 4 left by Wade on December 20th, 2005
“The angel taught Nephi that these were those that fight against the 12 apostles.”
Well said. This may bring the heart of my question back to everybody’s favorite talk about pride. As we gain more and more knowledge, how many of us start to make statements like: “Most people in the church don’t realize…” Is that because we build up a certain portion of pride regarding what we perceive as our great stores of knowledge? And do we justify that pride by self-righteously pointing out that the Lord has commanded us to seek learning and that we will have the advantage in the world to come etc, etc…?
It seems to me to be a pretty tough road to hoe and I can point out several times in my path of gospel scholarship where I have developed a “most church members just don’t get it” attitude. So as long as I feel that way, I guess “my wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth me not.”
Comment # 5 left by Ryan on December 21st, 2005
Additionally, should we sometimes just let well enough alone and accept that certain mysteries are just “rose” doctrines of the gospel, that is to say, right now they are given to us only to follow and appreciate and we will find out what they are “good for” in due time?
Comment # 6 left by Ryan on December 21st, 2005
Dear Bloggers,
Your friend probably just needs to see more carefully selected quotes from church books that make him realize that feelings, and not reasoning, should be trusted. However, be careful not to let your friend know that many other religions/sects/organizations have members that have felt the spirit telling them that their cause is correct. Do not discuss with your friend the fact that a story can make you feel good, not because it’s true, but because it would be nice if it were true. This is why we all feel the spirit when we hear the story about each being individually a part of God’s plan for the universe, that we have the keys to immortal Godhood, and generally that the often-malevolent world is actually under the omnipotent control of a benevolent being… these things give us good feelings because we want them to be true. However, these same emotions can be evoked by any good story that we want to believe. As your friend discovers information that seems to contradict cherished or even just long-held beliefs, he/she will likely have some bad feelings. While these are normal feelings for someone to have when they realize that the story they had believed for many years is not entirely true, be sure to explain that these bad feelings indicate that the facts that contradict the current gospel should not be trusted. If you cannot get your friend to disregard reason and follow a good story, he/she may be lost forever.
On the other hand, however, we have lost many souls to various cults because they relied on feelings alone - not because they’ve made a calm, logical decision to drink the Kool-Aid, but because they were relying on their feelings instead of logic. After all, if feelings were our only source of guidance, everyone would always be right. Convince your friend that, although there are lots of sources of good feelings and, correspondingly, lots of feelings that the spirit uses to teach us of ultimate truth, feelings of the spirit that are in conflict with the current gospel are feelings from the devil. Try to condition your friend’s mind with the believe that the “spirit” is limited to only those good feelings that are aligned with the current gospel. Thus, if a Jehovah’s Witness were to testify about the great feelings they get in their church, your friend should disregard those feelings as of the devil and not accept them as a basis for joining the Jehovah’s Witnesses. If a member of the Seventh-day Adventists were to tell your friend about all of their wonderful spiritual experiences and their inspired code of health that protects them, your friend should not conclude that they must be the one and only true church. Critically, you must not allow your friend to know many fundamentalist Christians claim that the “feelings” that Mormons get as confirmation of the truthfulness of Mormonism are just a deception of Satan. This fact would simply cause further confusion and questioning of the legitimacy of feelings.
In sum, if you are to have a chance of savings your friend from the fiery depths of the terrestrial kingdom, you have the difficult task of instilling into your friend the principle that feelings are unreliable unless they are feelings that are aligned with the current gospel.
Good luck in your endeavors,
-A friend in Siwel, SC
Comment # 7 left by Anonymous on December 21st, 2005
A friend in Siwel, SC
Oh my goodness, so much to respond to.
Let me first point out the one point that I strongly disagree with and then add some thoughts on the other points you made.
“the fiery depths of the terrestrial kingdom”
Let’s not forget that although maybe undesirable to some, the terrestrial kingdom is still a degree of glory
Beyond that, your comments remind me of a lesson I used to teach on my mission to our less active members:
I would show them common drawn out illusions, talk about how an echo works, fool their tastebuds with an apple and a pear, etc.. and then discuss how we need to rely on the holy ghost because it is so easy to fool the senses that we rely on everyday to make sense of reality. So on that note I can appreciate much of your commentary on “feelings”
“However, be careful not to let your friend know…”
I am dubious as to whether the best way to help a friend is to omit truth to win a debate.
In reality, I have much hope for his eventual return to the gospel. My bigger concern is for our community in general. Probably more specifically the Bloggernacle because the very medium in which we debate is so public. When such a visible group of members is potentially providing what outsiders may consider to be a sampling of the membership in general, I get a bit sensitive about the image that is being portrayed. I feel somewhat that the Bloggernacle is starting to take on the persona of the rebellious child trying to bend the doctrine to his understanding instead of the intelligent faithful
trying to hash out the mysteries of Godliness by combining our thoughts and experiences.
Maybe I’m being too judgemental.
Comment # 8 left by Ryan on December 21st, 2005
For some reason I think our good friend in Siwel, SC is being sarcastic to the highest degree. If that is not the case then comments like:
“Try to condition your friend’s mind with the believe that the “spirit” is limited to only those good feelings that are aligned with the current gospel.”
Try to condition..? I would like to here what other people think, but in my opinion I am not trying to “condition” anyone. Nor do I think it is our place to be misleading, in the sense of steering clear of certain topics. “We are to learn all thing and hold fast to that which is good” Your post seems to be completely contrary to that.
Comment # 9 left by Eric on December 21st, 2005
eric:
Our friend’s post is clearly sarcastic!
Comment # 10 left by Wade on December 21st, 2005
I don’t wish to get into any tangential discussion about beauty itself, but I think Ryan may have found the answer in this one word.
A “first cut” definition is, The qualities in a thing that exalt the mind or spirit of man. To add to this definition, or to refine it, I would say that a thing becomes more beautiful the more it is organized to represent its spiritual pattern. For example, all things were created in a perfect state before the physical creation and fall. Of course, the fall has brought death, disease, decay, and one could say “ugliness”. (Joseph said his brother Alvin was the most handsome man he ever saw and this was because he resembled Seth, who was the perfect replication of his father Adam - who’s fall likely did not affect his physical appearance.)
To sum up, a thing is beautiful because it resembles true reality, or perfect order (things that are, have always been, and will always be (DC 93) - I’m hoping not to always be so ugly after the resurrection).
Because we seek to understand the “mysteries” of godliness with out carnal minds, we inevitably find what we think are “problems” with them. How can it be that God would command Joseph to marry more than one wife (something Kaimi struggles with as referenced in his post at T&S)??? Well, our problem is that we don’t see true reality and order in the same way God does - even though we may think we do because we’re so “smart”. And, this is why some find that through their studies they seem only to discover rotten cabbage instead of roses - because they don’t have the proper premise to begin with!
Thus, this is why Jacob said, “The wise, and the learned, and they that are rich, who are puffed up because of their learning, and their wisdom, and their riches - yea, they are they whom he despiseth; and save they shall cast these things away, and consider themselves fools before God, and come down in the depths of humility, he will not open unto them. But the things of the wise and the prudent shall be hid from them forever - yea, that happiness which is prepared for the saints.” (2 Nephi 9:42-43)
Humility is key to learning the deep things of God, those of us in the bloggernacle who suffer from pseudo intellectualism struggle with this one, and unfortunately this is the reason why the “conflicted” testimony has become so popular! Or, on the other hand, why many pseudo intellectuals fall away.
Comment # 11 left by Wade on December 21st, 2005