Thou shalt not hunt?
Posted by Ryan on December 15th, 2005
I recently got into a bit of a debate over at BCC about the morality of hunting (I belive it to be highly immoral). In the discussion I used several scriptures and quotes from the prophets to support my position. The response to my “evidence” was that I was using the quotes in the wrong context. The immoral way to hunt, it was claimed, is to just wantonly kill without making use of the carcass for food or some other industrious purpose. This sidestepped the point of my argument which I believe leads into a higher level of discussion. My point being, it is unrighteous to foster a thirst for blood regardless of what you decide to do with the remnants of the lives you quench.
The higher level of debate: Suppose that there were never any proclamations made denouncing the practice of hunting. Are we not still required to recognize within ourselves attitudes that are carnal and attempt to expunge them from within ourselves? Whether it be the carnal desire to violently destroy a creature for “fun” or if it be something more benign. In short, aren’t we responsible for taking a closer look at our motivations for our actions as much as we are responsible for the actions themselves.
I personally agree with your stance. The hunting issue aside, I think it is wrong to thirst for blood, wether it be a deer or a cockroach. I beleive there will be times when we may need to kill a deer (if we are starving) or a cockroach (whenever they are in our house, yech!), but to thirst for the “Kill” is wrong.
That’s how I see it.
I don’t feel that hunting is wrong. I don’t think it is any different than, say, raising cattle and then slaughtering them. I suppose that if you were raising cattle, and your favorite part of the day was killing them, then the thirst for killing would apply to you as well.
I guess it all hinges on your attitude while hunting.
Comment # 1 left by Ian on December 15th, 2005
Are we not still required to recognize within ourselves attitudes that are carnal and attempt to expunge them from within ourselves?
I think you hit the proverbial “nail” right on the head by saying that!
The fact is that 90 percent, or more, of those who hunt do so for sport. True, the vast majority of them don’t “waste” the animal because most of these hunters enjoy eating the meat. But, one must really reflect on the need to hunt for that meat. It is clearly not necessary because virtually anyone in America (and I know there are exceptions - hence the 90% figure) can go down to their supermarket and get sufficient for their needs.
It is therefore clear that those who hunt do so for the “thrill” of killing. Don’t get me wrong here, I personally disfavor most animal life and think pet lovers are what I call “whack” (I know this is material for another post, and I realize I am the “weird” one here).
There are a lot of things in this mortal world that are “thrilling”, or what some call “fun”. Typically, if done in excess or without boundaries, these activities are detrimental to goodness and spirital life. Destroying life for the thrill of it is one such activity.
And as for expunging carnal attitudes, I think this is the chief purpose for coming to earth. I’ve actually been thinking a lot about carnality versus spirituality and have come to realize that our lives are full of carnal attitudes and activities. This is because we’ve accepted what have become norms in the world - these norms are activities, words, expressions, and attitudes that all foster carnality (as an example, think of fishing - this is a sport that is completely accepted by virtually everyone as moral and okay (a norm), and yet I don’t see the moral difference between fishing and hunting mammals?). This is a silly example, but I honestly believe that many, or most of the norms in our lives foster carnality.
Thus, to actually live the Sacramental covenant to always remember Him is essentially impossible unless one starts to reflect, understand, and begin to make decisions about how one spends his or her time.
I would say that hunting is definitely NOT the best way to seek the Spirit.
Comment # 2 left by Wade on December 15th, 2005
Ryan - I completely agree with you. I was going to write a comment to that effect, but didn’t want to get to far off track.
I think destroying life, animal or human, unnecessarily is an affront to our divine nature. I would even go a little farther and say that not only should people refrain from killing animals for sport, but that people should drastically cut down (or, preferably, eliminate) their consumption of meat.
Anyway, thanks for sharing your thoughts at BCC.
Comment # 3 left by Elisabeth on December 15th, 2005
There are also the environmental impacts to consider. The wildlife organizations determine every year how many of these wildlife should be “destroyed”. Rather than rounding them up and killing them, they issue hunting certificates to people to help lower the populations.
I personally feel that this is acceptable. I think hunting a deer and killing it is no different than working in a chicken factory cutting off the heads of chickens. Or on a farm killing cows. They are animals, that have been given us for consumption.
I agree that we should follow the word of wisdom and reduce our intake of meat.
On a side note, I am not a hunter. I am no fan of killing things at all. Once I did go hunting and I had a perfect shot. I had the deer in my sites, but froze. I just stood there watching it. Later I told my dad that I didn’t have a good shot.
What it boils down to is your attitude. The other day in priesthood, the elders quarum president started out the meeting by letting one of the bretheren talk about his Elk hunting experience. I found this completely inappropriate. But I live in a hick town in Oregon so I guess it’s to be expected.
Comment # 4 left by Ian on December 16th, 2005
The hunting thread has drawn me in.
First of all my overall views right now on hunting are similar to what ian previously posted.
“I don’t feel that hunting is wrong. I don’t think it is any different than, say, raising cattle and then slaughtering them.”
I eat meat so I have to deal with the reality that an animal has been killed for me every time I buy a steak or a hamburger. Just because I am removed from the actual process of killing does not make me less liable.
I would argue that hunting most of the time is good because it forces one to face that decision head on. When the deer,elk,moose,etc.. is in your crosshairs you have to make that decision. When you order through the drive-through you do not.
Wade said:
“The fact is that 90 percent, or more, of those who hunt do so for sport. True, the vast majority of them don’t “waste” the animal because most of these hunters enjoy eating the meat. But, one must really reflect on the need to hunt for that meat. It is clearly not necessary because virtually anyone in America (and I know there are exceptions - hence the 90% figure) can go down to their supermarket and get sufficient for their needs.
It is therefore clear that those who hunt do so for the “thrill” of killing.”
I believe, actually know this statement not to be true. Ive lived in the suburbs or an urban area my whole life until two years ago when I moved to a rural part of Montana. Since then I have had many pre-conceived notions squashed by reality, hunting being one of them. In the area where I live hunting is a way of life come fall. While I would agree that most of the hunters enjoy the sport overall, I haven’t encountered a large “thirst for blood” attitude. For most of the people killing a deer means a full freezer and food for the family through the winter. Economically it makes very good sense for them. A deer tag costs ~$20 for a resident, and that translates into a very low price per pound of food. Most families try to kill at least two deer in order to have the meat last through the entire year.
More often, what you see is a thirst for big antlers, which in my mind is not too different than the thirst for the big house, new car etc…
While any legal deer would provide for the food need, there is a definite bragging game that goes along with it concerning who bagged the biggest buck. While I can’t defend this practice I would argue that more often than not it is secondary to filling the freezer.
Lastly as I have already written too long I would also argue that there are very good ecological reasons for some species..especially deer, but I will save that for a further post if anyone is interested.
-Scott-
Comment # 5 left by Anonymous on December 16th, 2005
Ian,
I see that you addressed many of my concerns before I posted my comments. I think maybe we are more on the same page than I originally thought!
-Scott-
Comment # 6 left by Anonymous on December 16th, 2005
Hey guys,
What then do y’all make of all the Bishops SP’s and even GA’s that hunt? Pres Monson Hunts birds with his son.
Just wondering. Seems like y’all are really quick to judge. last time around the blogger called Pres Monson to repentance…
I am a casual hunter that goes out maybe once or twice a year and I am Bbell from the previous BCC conversation.
Comment # 7 left by Anonymous on December 16th, 2005
last time around the blogger called Pres Monson to repentance…
Yeah that was me. Except there is a difference (which I stated pretty clearly) Between “President Monson” and “Thomas S. Monson” In fact I would be willing to bet my X-box 360 that if you suggested to Bro. Monson that anything he does in his personal life is a tacit endorsement for us to behave in the same, he would strenuously object.
The real question would be, if he were asked to speak in Gen. Conf. on the righteousness of hunting for sport, which side would he favor? I tend to think that he would fall in line with the past prophets who have spoken (in an official capacity) on the subject.
“Seems like y’all are really quick to judge.”
I believe the scriptures counsel us to judge righteous judgement. (John 7:24 to be exact). Which is the purpose of this blog, namely, to determine whther the fact that I have been judging hunters is righteous or not.
So prove me wrong with the word of the Lord.
Comment # 8 left by Ryan on December 16th, 2005
Concerning my statement that the majority of hunters hunt for sport, Scott said: “I believe, actually know this statement not to be true.”
In response, I think you may have missed my point concerning “virtually all” hunters to so for sport. In fact, I gave a guess of 90%. I realize that in some States like Montana (but only the “rural” parts of the state, not down-town Billings etc.) there is a real need to hunt. Some simple figures will prove my point. In Montana there are 902,195 people - not even a million - and Montana is the fourth largest state in the Union by area. There are 33,871,648 people in California. In the greater San Diego area, where I live, there are three times as many people than in the whole State of Montana. I know for a fact that 99.99% of these people don’t “need” to hunt for food. So, even if the whole state of Montana “needed” to hunt for its food (which is false), comparing that State to the rest of the population paints a clearer picture.
However, before I sound like a PETA freak, which I am NOT, I would like to say that I have some, probably even more difficult, carnality issues to work out myself. It is just my simple belief that hunting fosters a carnal nature.
As for Bbell, you bring up a good/difficult point about all the Bishops, SPs and GAs that hunt. I would respond to this issue by saying that just because you’re a leader in the Church doesn’t make you perfect - I think they would be the first to tell you that they repent on a daily basis. However, I think hunting has become an accepted “norm” in our society (see my comment above), and the normalness of it prevents people from reflecting and introspecting about it. I would analogize to the issues of vanity and dress that have krept into the Church and have become accepted norms. Back in the early days of the Church, Women (in society generally) thought it was immodest to show their legs in public. However, the sliding moral scale has brought us to an age where it is acceptable to wear very short skirts. The Church has also accepted this norm by shortening the garment - I have seen the wife of a SP wearing a skirt that went about7 inches above her knee when she sat down.
Thus, the fact that many very good and faithful members of the Church do something doesn’t make it right or good. We all have things we should discontinue in order to come closer to God.
Comment # 9 left by Wade on December 16th, 2005
President Monson has been telling hunting stories regarding hunting with his son recently in conference. Apparently he is OK with mentioning his hunting hobby in public.
To me it must be OK if he does it.
Comment # 10 left by Anonymous on December 16th, 2005
“To me it must be OK if he does it.”
Okay I’ll accept that as a fair argument. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to suggest that something a GA clearly feels no shame for doing can’t be all that bad.
My concern with that argument is this: Seeing as how Monson has announced his hobby but has not declared it to be righteous, how do we then navigate the sticky ground that comes with reading of a multitude of prophets who have explicitly come out against hunting for sport as an evil practice. You can see how it would put me in a bit of a quandary especially when the scriptures state that we will be held accountable for the blood of every animal.
Comment # 11 left by Ryan on December 16th, 2005
Some of the concern with church leaders and hunting is the noticeable drop in attendance of priesthood holders in church on Sundays during hunting season.
Still I would like some more thoughts on the notion of killing your meat yourself -vs- buying it in a store. What is the difference?
The word of wisdom probably offers good advice as to eating more grains, etc.. and eating meat in moderation. But where does this meat come from?
I feel comfortable as I would guess Thomas Monson does also at being accountable for the animals I kill. I do not kill animals for the fun of it, and I do not take the decision to take life lightly.
Wade said: “It is just my simple belief that hunting fosters a carnal nature.”
Having hunted myself this past fall I would have to disagree. My experience hunting only led to an increased appreciation and understanding of God’s creation and my place in it.
-Scott-
Comment # 12 left by Anonymous on December 16th, 2005
I do not kill animals for the fun of it.
Then why do you do it? Do you go hunting because you cannot afford to buy meat from the store? Does it break your heart to kill an animal even though you know that you must do it for the survival of your family? I suspect this is not the case. And I will unfairly and anecdotally project my opinion of this upon the general populace
Seriously though, do you find my position to be an inaccurate depiction of the majority of the hunting crowd? Especially in light of Wade’s statistics?
Having hunted myself this past fall I would have to disagree. My experience hunting only led to an increased appreciation and understanding of God’s creation and my place in it.
How so?
Comment # 13 left by Ryan on December 16th, 2005
Also, for my enlightenment, please point out the ambiguity in these quotes because for the life of me I can’t find them:
We should by every means in our power impress upon the rising generation the value of life and how dreadful a sin it is to take life. The lives of animals even should be held far more sacred than they are. Young people should be taught to be very merciful to the brute creation and not to take life wantonly or for sport. The practice of hunting and killing game merely for sport should be frowned upon and not encouraged among us. God has created the fowls and the beasts for man’s convenience and comfort and for his consumption at proper times and under proper circumstances; but he does not justify men in wantonly killing those creatures which He has made and with which He has supplied the earth.
George Q. Cannon Gospel Truth, Vol. 1, p.30
I never could see why a man should be imbued with a blood-thirsty desire to kill and destroy animal life. I have known men–and they still exist among us–who enjoy what is, to them, the “sport” of hunting…I do not believe any man should kill animals or birds unless he needs them for food… I think it is wicked for men to thirst in their souls to kill almost everything which possesses animal life. It is wrong…
Answers to Gospel Questions, Vol.4, p.48
And lest we quibble about the definition of sport hunting:
hunt (hnt)
v. hunt·ed, hunt·ing, hunts
v.tr.
1. To pursue (game) for food or sport.
2. To search through (an area) for prey: hunted the ridges.
3. To make use of (hounds, for example) in pursuing game.
4. To pursue intensively so as to capture or kill: hunted down the escaped convict.
5. To seek out; search for.
6. To drive out forcibly, especially by harassing; chase away:
Comment # 14 left by Ryan on December 16th, 2005
Lets look at the first quote.
“he does not justify men in wantonly killing those creatures which He has made.”
What is the definition of Wanton?
“wanton wónt(u)n
Waste time; spend one’s time idly or inefficiently
- piddle, wanton away, piddle away, trifle
Indulge in a carefree or voluptuous way of life
Spend wastefully
“wanton one’s money away”
- wanton away, trifle away
Become extravagant; indulge (oneself) luxuriously
- luxuriate
Engage in amorous play
Behave extremely cruelly and brutally”
I think that many hunters do not fit this description of why they hunt.
Comment # 15 left by Ian on December 16th, 2005
“Behave extremely cruelly and brutally”
How, then, would you describe lining up a scope on a typically unsuspecting animal and firing a high velocity shard of heated metal which is intended to rip holes through vital organs? Sounds like fun and games to me.
Comment # 16 left by Ryan on December 19th, 2005
At first thought I agree that that there is nothing wrong with a little hunting. It sounds fun and something that a man such as myself (being filled with an unusually high amount of testosterone) would enjoy. The thrill of tracking your prey and then cutting its throat. The proud moment of bringing your kill home slung over your shoulder and throwing it on to the kitchen table. My wife running over and throwing herself on me thanking me for bringing home the beacon.
But…, Frist, anyone that knows my wife is laughing right now because she would tell me to get that dead rotting carcass off the table and get out side because I smell. Secondly, I went home after reading the first comments and researched what the prophets had to say. Ryan stole my quotes so no need to include them here but my opinion changed with them.
Now there are those that do need to hunt. I think Wade’s 90% is giving way to much credit. If it is not for sport than I think it is ok because that’s not what the prophet was talking about but if it is than it is wrong. To each his own, if one thinks that he is hunting for necessity and not sport than he should feel fine about it. This has been taught by more than just the prophets already mentioned, starting with Joseph Smith. I just cannot deny that the prophets have said that it is wrong.
Comment # 17 left by Cpt. Teancum on December 20th, 2005
You need to put the older quotes in context. Prior to about 1900 and modern game managment there was a lot of wanton killing of game animals. Think the destruction of the buffalo and the almost wipeout of deer and elk. Any prophet with a lick of sense could see that its wrong to just go out and destroy a game population.
Things have changed since then. State game Departments strictly control hunting. This is more correct. Controling hunting and protecting a vital resource is in harmany in my view of section 59.
Did you know that the church owns a commercial hunting operation in Utah? I saw an article about it last year in the SL tribune. There is even a older missionary couple that runs the place.
Comment # 18 left by Anonymous on December 20th, 2005
“You need to put the older quotes in context.”
I disagree. I have yet to find a single quote that even remotely mentions responsible game management. Consequently you’re making an argument from silence which doesn’t carry much weight when compared to the actual words that we have available to us.
I am well aware of the hunting preserve in Utah and for a complete firsthand account you can visit www.vegsource.com/articles/catano_hunting.htm
The church is slowly backpedaling from this little venture. Why is that?
Comment # 19 left by Ryan on December 20th, 2005
Here are some timeless quotes.
Genesis 9:11. Inspired Version
“And surely, blood shall not be shed, only for meat, to save your lives; and the blood of every beast will i require at your hands.”
Here is one more recent from Joseph Fielding Smith.
“It is easy to destroy life, but who can restore it when it is taken?… No! Man should be more the friend and never an enemy to any living creature. The Lord placed them here.”
I was one that thought there is nothing wrong with hunting. We need to shoot these animals and as long as we use the meat it is OK.
My opinion has changed. More than these old quotes from prophets, to me it just makes sense. These are God’s creations.
If people are honest with themselves most will relies the reason they go out and hunt is to fill a desire within them to kill something. They are not called “Sportsman” for nothing. It is a sport.
I do agree that the opinion of society has changed in the matter, as well as the opinion in the church. That does not mean that if we were better saints then we would follow the counsel of former prophets on the matter.
Joseph Smith taught,
“Men must become harmless, before the brute creation; and when men lose their vicious dispositions and cease to destroy the animal race, the lion and the lamb can dwell together, and the suckling child can play with the serpent in safety”.
Comment # 20 left by B. Cotter on December 20th, 2005
Ryan: Nice! I have yet to see someone who can counter your position with authority.
Blaine: Nice! Your quotes coupled with Ryan’s quotes and stance make me feel like striking up a conversation with my brother - an avid hunter (he brought home three deer this year alone and has killed numerous other Turkeys and other birds).
But, what of my point about all this being okay because it has become a norm. How do we reconcile fishing (a far greater norm than hunting) with these facts?
Comment # 21 left by Wade on December 20th, 2005
“How do we reconcile fishing”
Yeah this is where my quick condemnation of hunters starts to slow down a bit, precisely because of what Wade has said. It seems too commonplace to be wrong. Furthermore, fish don’t have big brown eyes and soft fur so it must be okay to kill them right?
*sigh*
I hate to admit it, but I can’t think of a reason that fishing wouldn’t fall under the same command as any other form of hunting.
One point to consider: I would be more than happy to use a painless way to fish if I could because for me, it really is the thrill of bringing in the fish. I bet several painless methods for “hunting” have been developed, (like using rubber pellets or using a laser sight to see if you would have hit your target)and yet they’ve never really caught on. I wonder why that is.
Comment # 22 left by Ryan on December 21st, 2005
Catch and release.
To complicate the issue further: is it ok to stomp on a bug that it is your home. Obviously this is a tad bit rediculous that is why I think it is great that the Lord does not command us in all things.
Comment # 23 left by B. Cotter on December 21st, 2005
It appears to me that many people here think that there is a difference between a wild animal and a domesticated one, such as a farm animal.
1.) Is it ok to kill cows to eat their meat?
2.) What makes a wild deer different or better than the cow?
3.) Is it ok to kill any animals at all?
Show me a difference between killing a wild deer and a domesticated cow?
Comment # 24 left by Ian on December 27th, 2005
I just finished reading the link regarding the church owned hunting grounds, and I do think it’s a little weird. The jury is out for me regarding it being appropriate though.
Comment # 25 left by Ian on December 27th, 2005
I just heard on the radio that a new Federal law was passed that bans what is called “e-hunting”. I guess there are some websites hunters can go to to kill animals on-line. They just control the gun with their mouse and look through a camera provided for them. I thought this pretty much solidifies the point that most hunting is done for the shear sport of it and for the “thrill of the kill”. After all, what happens to the carcass - I’m assuming that it isn’t shipped to the killer?
Comment # 26 left by Wade on January 13th, 2006